Game of Thrones

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

I’ve seen plenty of Daenerys Targaryen fans on social media suddenly hating on Dark Phoenix. lmao

Plenty of MCU fans too

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

They just didn't seem to be all that as far as fighters go.

I mean, we could be here all day talking about the the lackluster armies, and military strategies in GoT lol.

[choptop]

I mean, we could be here all day talking about the the lackluster armies, and military strategies in GoT lol.

This is 100% true.

[Jackalope89]

Iron Islands I doubt has much of a fleet left. It seemed half sided with Yara/Theon, the other with Euron, and most of those ships were wiped out over the course of two seasons.

The Dornish that supported Dany (Sandsnakes) are dead after becoming kinslayers themselves. So I wouldn't automatically throw them into supporting Dany's forces at this point. Especially since we know nothing of the new Prince.

The Unsullied? Other than Grey Worm, they were practically automatons when it came to war. Give them an order, even if its stupid and suicidal, and they do it without question. Most of their humanity was beaten out of them at an early age. So them robotically forming up against the Army of Dead is just them doing what they do best; follow orders and don't break.

Dothraki? Book versions are better. But the show kind are barbaric idiots when it comes to battle. Throw a bunch of light cavalry at the center of their enemy's forces. If not for Drogon, I think the Lannisters hold in season 7. And we saw how effective they were against the army of dead.

The North? Sansa has the Riverlands (her uncle is an idiot, but will at least follow the Starks it seems) and the Vale (chances of Robyn still having a crush on her?), which I imagine still has other forces besides what they sent to the North initially. And they're relatively untouched from previous wars. And the North really likes Jon.

Gendry? True, Dany legitimized him. But he has a lot of ties to the Starks, particularly Arya. If he stayed neutral (being newly raised, hard to see him having much power just yet), that may be enough for the North.

While Yara may still be supporter of Dany, the Ironborn are simply too depleted themselves to even think of trying to launch a campaign against the North.

The Rock? Rob did a number on the Lannister forces, as did the conflicts after. While true, they could recruit more, who do they follow? Tyrion is locked up, the rest of the main house is dead, and hard to say who in the remaining cadet branches has an otherwise strong enough claim?

Bronn? The guy would need a lot of time to bring the Reach under control. Though I doubt he truly cares about who sits in the throne in the grand scheme of things.


All in all? Yara is pretty much beside herself that we can see. If Dorne truly wants a Targaryean on the throne? Well, Jon is the last of that line (remnant Blackfyres and what not, not withstanding), with Varys sending letters out. But not a word. The Unsullied? They'll follow Grey Worm, but all they know is how to be light infantry. They're not masons, politicians, builders, and what not. The Dothraki? Meh.

Here's to hoping that the remnants of Dany's forces get Butterfly Fever and are put out of the world's misery.

[AndrewCrossett]

The Iron Fleet re-spawns just like all of the other troops on the show. Yara left Euron at Pyke with hardly any ships, hardly any experienced crews or commanders, and no timber resources with which to build new ships. Yet in no time at all he had apparently grown a new armada in a jar like sea monkeys, and it was the terror of the Seven Seas of the Seven Kingdoms.

[remydat]

Why would Dorne and the Ironborn be allies? There's nothing to suggest that they would be. Even in your what-if scenario - The Dorne are supposedly going to be busy taking king's landing? How does that help the Iron isles in their present predicament. As for the Iron fleet, didn't most of their ships get destroyed in battle with Euron? I just don't see the long term strategy here.

So Dorne is going to try to capture a city far away from the their own lands, surrounded by potential hostile houses. Again, we'll just agree to disagree here. I don't understand that reasoning.

First of all, I never said people should care about rapists in the north. Straw-maning is not helping your argument. Yes all armies of the seven kingdoms have a history of raping and pillaging. I don't recall any of them having a history of burning down civilians after a city surrendered. The Unsullied are not fucking angels here just because they can't rape - they slaughtered people who surrendered. Again, I don't see how the population of westeros wouldn't be hostile to them after what happened in King's Landing. As for their feeling toward the northmen, considering the north doesn't want to rule over them it's kind of irrelevant.

Well, it's a half-burned city that would require enormous funds to rebuild. Oh, it's a port city. It certainly has value. Which is why I don't see how the other Houses would be okay if Dorne just wanted to take it. In an independent scenario I can see it being a neutral city state, not under the authority of any one house, and everyone chipping in to rebuild it. Most of the Iron fleet is destroyed, and Dorne has never been a naval power.

Westerlands have a large population. People can be trained. And no, it's not like every single fighting man in the westerlands was at Kings Landing, that's just silly. You say "why would anyone want to side with independent North"? Well the Starks, the Arryns and the Tully's all have blood relations, so their alliance is a foregone conclusion. The better questions is why the hell would anyone want to side with an army of foreigners who's Mad queen is dead? Who overwhelmingly bares responsibility for the burning of the capitol? We can go over these what-if scenarios all day. But this is getting silly. D&D wrote their own story, and that's that.

1. If Grey Worm insists on Jon's death then Dorne and Iron Islands appeared to be on board with that and thus that is why they would be allies. They would agree with Grey Worm whole Sansa and the North would not.

2. Dorne being in KL with Unsullied means if the North attacks Yarra can attack their rear. Go read up on WWI & II to understand why being caught between two armies is generally not a good idea. Euron built like a 1,000 ships in a short period of time. Iron Isles can easily rebuild their ships.

3. Dorne is going to try and capture a city because their allies in this scenario already have control of the city. The city is in the hands of Grey Worm. There is nothing to capture. Just something they need to keep.

4. Dorne is not surrounded by hostile houses. Stormlands are to the south and as I noted I believe Gendry would stay out of the war because he owes his title to Dany. Then you have the Reach under Bronn but no one in the Reach owes Bronn any loyalty. He is a former sellsword and murderer who just got his title so I see no reason for him to get involved. Being the cunning guy he is, he sits it out and just makes peace with the winners. Westerlands are also to the East but again Tyrion has no armies as they all died protecting Cersei. Thus, you really only have the Riverlands to the Northwest with a weak ruler and they have the same problem as the North. If they go to Kings Landing then the Iron Islands are even closer to the Riverlands than they are to the North as they used to be one Kingdom prior to Aegon's conquest. So if the Riverlands commit to taking King's Landing then the Iron Islands rape and pillage their lands.

5. Your claim was people would hate the Unsullied because they are foreigners. I am saying the North are now foreigners and rapists to boot. That is not strawmanning. That is me telling you the North may in fact be in a worse position than the Unsulled relative to the local populace. The Unsullied did not slaughter people who surrendered. That was the Dothraki and the North. The Unsullied killed soldiers. Soldiers who ultimately picked up their swords and fought after the Unsullied attacked. The point here is the North are just as guilty as the Unsullied if not moreso. They raped and pillaged as the city was burning so if people are upset with the Unsullied they are also upset with the North.

6. Dorne doesn't need to be a naval power if they are aligned with the Iron Islands. Iron Islands can provide the ships as Euron proved. Iron Islands can also build ships faster than anyone else as Euron proved.

7. Yes people can be trained but while that is going on, KL will be getting rebuilt, Iron Islands will be building their ships so if Dorne and Iron Islands control the seas and KL, good luck trying to take KL back. And yes I already said the Vale, North and Riverlands would be in an alliance. I just to see them getting much more than that and the Riverlands are a bit of an issue because Edmure is a bitch. We saw that at the council where Sansa embarrassed him. So is he really going to commit forces to taking KL when doing so leaves the Riverlands exposed for the Iron Islands to attack his rear? Not seeing it. He will feign support but probably be not risk Iron Islands attacking Riverlands while his armies are at KL just to assist a niece who already made him look stupid in front of the other Lords.

D&D story sucks hence why I am discussing other stuff. If you don't wish to engage then don't. No one is forcing you.

[remydat]

They just didn't seem to be all that as far as fighters go.

Compared to who? I really don't know who I would take over them. Certainly not the North or the Golden Company. They are said to be not as strong as normal men due to being Eunuchs (presumably less testosterone) but make up for it with extreme discipline. So in a one on one battle, maybe you take a fighter from the North but in a battle, I take them any day because they fight together. The Northmen are undisciplined and not the best when it comes to tactics.

[Theleviathan]

The Iron Fleet re-spawns just like all of the other troops on the show. Yara left Euron at Pyke with hardly any ships, hardly any experienced crews or commanders, and no timber resources with which to build new ships. Yet in no time at all he had apparently grown a new armada in a jar like sea monkeys, and it was the terror of the Seven Seas of the Seven Kingdoms.

This is a problem in the book series as well. Given the length of time the fighting has happened, coupled with the number of large scale battles, means it is highly unlikely there are even enough people to sustain a military campaign.

I believe the visual medium only makes this more apparent. It was a problem LOTR did a better job with, but had similar issues as well.

[remydat]

Iron Islands I doubt has much of a fleet left. It seemed half sided with Yara/Theon, the other with Euron, and most of those ships were wiped out over the course of two seasons.

The Dornish that supported Dany (Sandsnakes) are dead after becoming kinslayers themselves. So I wouldn't automatically throw them into supporting Dany's forces at this point. Especially since we know nothing of the new Prince.

The Unsullied? Other than Grey Worm, they were practically automatons when it came to war. Give them an order, even if its stupid and suicidal, and they do it without question. Most of their humanity was beaten out of them at an early age. So them robotically forming up against the Army of Dead is just them doing what they do best; follow orders and don't break.

Dothraki? Book versions are better. But the show kind are barbaric idiots when it comes to battle. Throw a bunch of light cavalry at the center of their enemy's forces. If not for Drogon, I think the Lannisters hold in season 7. And we saw how effective they were against the army of dead.

The North? Sansa has the Riverlands (her uncle is an idiot, but will at least follow the Starks it seems) and the Vale (chances of Robyn still having a crush on her?), which I imagine still has other forces besides what they sent to the North initially. And they're relatively untouched from previous wars. And the North really likes Jon.

Gendry? True, Dany legitimized him. But he has a lot of ties to the Starks, particularly Arya. If he stayed neutral (being newly raised, hard to see him having much power just yet), that may be enough for the North.

While Yara may still be supporter of Dany, the Ironborn are simply too depleted themselves to even think of trying to launch a campaign against the North.

The Rock? Rob did a number on the Lannister forces, as did the conflicts after. While true, they could recruit more, who do they follow? Tyrion is locked up, the rest of the main house is dead, and hard to say who in the remaining cadet branches has an otherwise strong enough claim?

Bronn? The guy would need a lot of time to bring the Reach under control. Though I doubt he truly cares about who sits in the throne in the grand scheme of things.


All in all? Yara is pretty much beside herself that we can see. If Dorne truly wants a Targaryean on the throne? Well, Jon is the last of that line (remnant Blackfyres and what not, not withstanding), with Varys sending letters out. But not a word. The Unsullied? They'll follow Grey Worm, but all they know is how to be light infantry. They're not masons, politicians, builders, and what not. The Dothraki? Meh.

Here's to hoping that the remnants of Dany's forces get Butterfly Fever and are put out of the world's misery.

Yeah if we go by the show physics, Yarra can rebuild the Iron Fleet in no time.

I also don't know that the Riverlands will be super excited to side with North. Tully just got embarrassed by his niece and frankly going to King's Landing would be stupid. Iron Islands are just off the coast of the Riverlands so Tully would be leaving his lands exposed. So realistically he most likely will have to keep a large part of his forces at home to protect against Iron Islands.

So it would be North and Vale forces besieging KL most likely with Tully holding his forces in place to discourage Iron Islands from attacking the rear.

I would agree the whole premise hinges on whether Dorne sides with Unsullied and Iron Islands but with Unsullied holding KL, that may be a nice prize to dangle. As for Dothraki, if North are attacking KL then Dothraki can attack their rear and flank and then retreat. Rinse and repeat. The issue the North and Vale would have is that they don't possess the cavalry to stop this. Only issue would be if the Dothraki too stupid to coordinate with Greyworm.

[AndrewCrossett]

Re: Jon's execution, it should be kept in mind that Arya would obviously do her best to kill anyone who tried to kill Jon. Even she wouldn't be able to win a fight against the whole Unsullied force. But... she is the woman who killed the most dangerous being in Westeros, became a continent-wide heroine, and, more to the point, saved the lives of every single Unsullied and Dothraki... they would certainly have been wiped out to the last man without her. So it had to be going through Grey Worm's mind that pressing for Jon's execution would not only have been literally suicidal for his whole army (they may have been able to kill him, but would be up against everyone in the Seven Kingdoms afterwards) but would also force him into mortal combat against a woman whom he owed his life to.

[hulahulk]

I wish I could create awesome memes or parody ads, but I can't so bear with me as I share this thought with you. Apologies if it has been done:

Picture this. Jon and Dany locked in embrace, totally making out. Suddenly Jon turns to the camera and says, "Once you 'take the Black', you never go back." He then winks.

The camera pulls back. In the foreground, on a candlelit table, rests two bottles of Dracaris Noir (think Drakkar Noir), Men's Cologne and Aftershave.

The narrator, Tyrion, then says "Dracaris Noir -- available at many fine merchants less than a day's journey from you throughout the 7 Kingdoms and Essos."

[XPac]

Yeah if we go by the show physics, Yarra can rebuild the Iron Fleet in no time.

I also don't know that the Riverlands will be super excited to side with North. Tully just got embarrassed by his niece and frankly going to King's Landing would be stupid. Iron Islands are just off the coast of the Riverlands so Tully would be leaving his lands exposed. So realistically he most likely will have to keep a large part of his forces at home to protect against Iron Islands.

So it would be North and Vale forces besieging KL most likely with Tully holding his forces in place to discourage Iron Islands from attacking the rear.

I would agree the whole premise hinges on whether Dorne sides with Unsullied and Iron Islands but with Unsullied holding KL, that may be a nice prize to dangle. As for Dothraki, if North are attacking KL then Dothraki can attack their rear and flank and then retreat. Rinse and repeat. The issue the North and Vale would have is that they don't possess the cavalry to stop this. Only issue would be if the Dothraki too stupid to coordinate with Greyworm.

Honestly I don't think the Dothraki even stuck around after Dany died. We didn't see any trace of them, and Grey Worm didn't mention them at all when he and Sansa were trading threats. They don't have a whole lot of reason to stay loyal to Grey Worm, and frankly I'm not entirely convinced he would even want them sticking around.

The other big issue of dealing with the North is of course deaking with the Starks. Again, they potentially are very very dangerous. Arya already threatened to kill Yarra, and that might actually be a more merciful fate than what Bran could do, if he really needed to. If you are going to go to war with the north you better be dam sure it's worth it.

[hulahulk]

I'm curious as to where the Dothraki think they could go. Seems like they'd prefer somewhere warm, like Dorne. But they would need a new leader to get them there. Maybe back to Essos?

[Punisher007]

Speaking of magically re-spawning troops, D&D basically said that the Dothraki were wiped out at the Battle of Winterfell, and the Unsullied lost a lot of their own forces as well. Yet when KL is stormed, they seem to have magically increased in number all of a sudden, and can cut through the vaunted Golden Company (who how pointless was that whole thing as well) with ease.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Iron Islands I doubt has much of a fleet left. It seemed half sided with Yara/Theon, the other with Euron, and most of those ships were wiped out over the course of two seasons.

The Dornish that supported Dany (Sandsnakes) are dead after becoming kinslayers themselves. So I wouldn't automatically throw them into supporting Dany's forces at this point. Especially since we know nothing of the new Prince.

The Unsullied? Other than Grey Worm, they were practically automatons when it came to war. Give them an order, even if its stupid and suicidal, and they do it without question. Most of their humanity was beaten out of them at an early age. So them robotically forming up against the Army of Dead is just them doing what they do best; follow orders and don't break.

Dothraki? Book versions are better. But the show kind are barbaric idiots when it comes to battle. Throw a bunch of light cavalry at the center of their enemy's forces. If not for Drogon, I think the Lannisters hold in season 7. And we saw how effective they were against the army of dead.

The North? Sansa has the Riverlands (her uncle is an idiot, but will at least follow the Starks it seems) and the Vale (chances of Robyn still having a crush on her?), which I imagine still has other forces besides what they sent to the North initially. And they're relatively untouched from previous wars. And the North really likes Jon.

Gendry? True, Dany legitimized him. But he has a lot of ties to the Starks, particularly Arya. If he stayed neutral (being newly raised, hard to see him having much power just yet), that may be enough for the North.

While Yara may still be supporter of Dany, the Ironborn are simply too depleted themselves to even think of trying to launch a campaign against the North.

The Rock? Rob did a number on the Lannister forces, as did the conflicts after. While true, they could recruit more, who do they follow? Tyrion is locked up, the rest of the main house is dead, and hard to say who in the remaining cadet branches has an otherwise strong enough claim?

Bronn? The guy would need a lot of time to bring the Reach under control. Though I doubt he truly cares about who sits in the throne in the grand scheme of things.


All in all? Yara is pretty much beside herself that we can see. If Dorne truly wants a Targaryean on the throne? Well, Jon is the last of that line (remnant Blackfyres and what not, not withstanding), with Varys sending letters out. But not a word. The Unsullied? They'll follow Grey Worm, but all they know is how to be light infantry. They're not masons, politicians, builders, and what not. The Dothraki? Meh.

Here's to hoping that the remnants of Dany's forces get Butterfly Fever and are put out of the world's misery.

The North just

-fought in the War of the Five King's where most of the heads of major houses died in the Red Wedding and they were in dissaray
-fought a civil War in John vs Ramsay.
-fought the Army of the Dead in the Battle of Winterfell
-fought an admittedly one sided siege for Dany on King's Landing

The Vale
-fought for the North in the Battle of the Bastards
-fought in the Long Night
-presumably fought in the battle at King's Landing

The Riverlands
-Fought in the War of the Five Kings. More so than that, the Riverlands were basically the setting for that War so no region was devastated more by that war. House Tully was destroyed.
-The other major House, House Frey, was slaughtered by Arya
-They were in dissaray especially when Jamie took back Riverrun.

Also it's explicitely mentioned that the Dornish Prince took up banners for Dany. So they were firmly in her camp. The Iron Islands were definitley in the camp of Dany. Then the Unsullied and Dothraki.

Also there is no way Gendry consolidated all the Stormlords in one week. And realistically most of them died with Stannis

It's not merely the fact that one side would win and one side would lose. It's that both sides were so devastated that more war was just further deestablization and needless bloodloss for what? To prove a point on both sides. Jon was a traitor to one side, Jon was a hero to the other. He ultimately wasn't worth the risk of bloodshed.