Game of Thrones

[AndrewCrossett]

Except Tyrion didn't win, her held the line so Tywin and the Tyrells could win. Tyrion was a small cog in a larger machine which was the battle of blackwater, and that's why he didn't get all the glory he thought he deserved.

Except without that "small cog" Tywin and the Tyrells would have arrived to King's Landing to find the capital fallen to Stannis, with all Tywin's children (except Jaime) and grandchildren dead and Stannis the rightful king by every law of succession.

Without Tyrion's efforts, Stannis wins the war and the Lannisters lose everything.

[Iron Fist]

Except without that "small cog" Tywin and the Tyrells would have arrived to King's Landing to find the capital fallen to Stannis, with all Tywin's children (except Jaime) and grandchildren dead and Stannis the rightful king by every law of succession.

Without Tyrion's efforts, Stannis wins the war and the Lannisters lose everything.

No, it was clear enough to me that the castle would have been seiged quickly with all those ships making it safe and sound and not their ruins clogging up the Bay. Every character that was not a Lannister seemed to realize how much Tyrion actually achieved.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

No, it really wouldn't because the castle has a castle within a castle designed to withstand sieges. And Tywin arrived literally within hours of the battle beginning, so they wouldn't have had enough time to get into Maegor's Holdfast to kill the king and queen.

So if Tyrion died and they got in, they'd still have had enough time to outlast any siege.

[JBatmanFan05]

Cersei didn't think they'd have enough time, she was readying a GoT Jonestown. Stannis, the great commander, would have known the castle well and would have overcome it before reinforcements could arrive.

I'm not arguing it anymore, agree to disagree. But IMHO Tyrion was a HUGE factor in the Lannister victory (one that did not cost Tywin the death of his family).

Without Tyrion's efforts, Stannis wins the war and the Lannisters lose everything.

I agree.

[Iron Fist]

Cersei didn't think they'd have enough time, she was planning for a GoT Jonestown. Stannis, the great commander, would have known the castle well and would have overcome it before reinforcements could arrive.

I'm not arguing it anymore, agree to disagree. But IMHO Tyrion was a HUGE factor in the Lannister victory (one that did not cost Tywin the death of his family).

That's because she didn't know where Tywin's army was due to him not telling them in case then ravens get intercepted.

Follow the timeline of the books or the show, Tyrion dies and Tywin still arrives before they can siege the holdfast.

[JBatmanFan05]

Follow the timeline of the books or the show, Tyrion dies and Tywin still arrives before they can siege the holdfast.

No, and you know Tyrion didn't just save his own ass because GRRM is a big Tyrion fan and definitely meant it that Tyrion was a big factor in saving his family & the realm from Stannis.

[Iron Fist]

No, and you know Tyrion didn't just save his own ass because GRRM is a big Tyrion fan and definitely meant it that Tyrion was a big factor in saving his family & the realm from Stannis.

GRRM had Tyrion save the city without credit to parallel Jaime with the mad king.

But it doesn't change that had Tyrion died and the city been sacked, then the lannisters would have survived in maegor's holdfast long enough for Tywin to arrive and save them.

Tyrion was a massive factor in saving the smallfolk and that's pretty much it.

[JBatmanFan05]

But it doesn't change that had Tyrion died and the city been sacked, then the lannisters would have survived in maegor's holdfast long enough for Tywin to arrive and save them.

Tyrion was a massive factor in saving the smallfolk and that's pretty much it.

Tywin probably wouldn't have made it to even the holdfast. GRRM meant it such that Tyrion saved everyone in KL and even that doesn't bring him the acceptance he's always sought.

[Iron Fist]

Tywin probably wouldn't have made it to even the holdfast. GRRM meant it such that Tyrion saved everyone in KL and even that doesn't bring him the acceptance he's always sought.

The holdfast has a moat full of spikes and like 12 feet high walls. It would take time to get in and Tywin would arrive during that time.

If I recall correctly it held for a few days during Robert's Rebellion before the mountain got in. Tywin arrives the same evening as the battle of the blackwater.

[CSTowle]

I don't think the message is about honor getting people killed so much as inflexibility/inability to adapt. But even that theme gets stretched thin with certain events.

The flipside being that Starks are typically great warriors and do/did a good job ruling in the North. Their style "works" for the North...just puts them out of their element in the comparatively corrupt southern lands. The greatest mistake of the entire series is as simple as Ned Stark not being willing to say "no" when Robert Baratheon asked him to be Hand of the King.

But seriously, Westeros has been a barely-functioning mess even under the best of the Targaryens. Sure there were some periods that were relatively peaceful and prosperous, but for the most part there's a war every generation. Sometimes across generations.

Someone like Littlefinger might say they're one and the same. And he'd be right.

[Handsome men don't lose fights]

That's because she didn't know where Tywin's army was due to him not telling them in case then ravens get intercepted.

Follow the timeline of the books or the show, Tyrion dies and Tywin still arrives before they can siege the holdfast.

Storm, the whole point of Tyrion's plot followning the blackwater siege was to show how poorly he'd been treated following his miraculous defense of King's Landing. The only reason Tyrwin and the Tyrells were able to pincer Stannis' army was because Tyrion kept them out of the city. If they'd gotten inside, it would have been over. The Red Keep doesn't even have a drawbridge over a moat.

[Iron Fist]

Storm, the whole point of Tyrion's plot followning the blackwater siege was to show how poorly he'd been treated following his miraculous defense of King's Landing. The only reason Tyrwin and the Tyrells were able to pincer Stannis' army was because Tyrion kept them out of the city. If they'd gotten inside, it would have been over. The Red Keep doesn't even have a drawbridge over a moat.

That perfectly parallel's jaime with the mad king.

Maegor's Holdfast does, it's the 'panic room' of the red keep. The battle wouldnt have been as quick but Tywin and the Tyrell's still outnumber them and would win.

[Paul W.]

It's fun to wonder "what if?" but fruitless when you take into consideration that what THE WRITER wanted to happen was going to happen without any regards to any "what if?" scenario.

The writer wanted Tyrion to be the unsung hero, while Tywin swoops in to gather all the glory. That was what the writer intended, and that was what we got. It was an essential thematic for Tyrion's story arc.

Tyrion saved the day, Tywin got the credit. Plotline moves forward.

[AndrewCrossett]

I wonder what Trystane was trying to prove by having Areo clock Bronn in the face? Aside from basically admitting to everyone present that he's too much of a wuss to do it himself?

It's like Justin Bieber siccing his bodyguard on people he doesn't like.

[JBatmanFan05]

Question: Why doesn't Doran appear to know that KL is in shambles with leader Cersei (and the two heirs to Highgarden) imprisoned and facing trial and Kevan in charge and the King an emotional cripple? Dorne that weak right now? (I'd rather no spoilers so just alert me if the answer will become clear)

[robreedwrites]

Question: Why doesn't Doran appear to know that KL is in shambles with leader Cersei (and the two heirs to Highgarden) imprisoned and facing trial and Kevan in charge and the King an emotional cripple?

I'm not sure how many people on either "pole" of Westeros know. The show's always been flimsy with distance and travel times, but I don't think Cersei's been imprisoned long enough for word to have reached Dorne. But I also can't remember whether or not Kevan returned and found out when he returned or whether he returned because he found out.

EDIT: However, it's possible that he does know, because it's Doran. He's a clever one.