Game of Thrones

[XPac]

Dany has shown nothing but restrain not attacking and showing that the bigger issue is the north right now. So there's little reason for her to believe that Dany will attack them first before moving north.

Tyrion flat out said Dany would have attacked Kings Landing if he didn't talk her out of it. So there's reason to believe Dany MIGHT try it.

[byc]

Not having giant plot holes really made me happy.

Just remember, any problems they don't explain we can use Benjen's last words for.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

It makes sense having it go down in this order, because Dany's forces will likely be decimated after fighting the Walkers to the degree that Cersi will be a real threat.

The problem going into this season was that Dany had too much of an advantage. The playing field will be level, ensuing we don't get any easy wins. Both Night King and Cersi become legit obstacles by having them in this order.

Like someone said on another message board WHY do we need Cersei to be a obstacle? That's the Night King's Job.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

I disagree completely. Ever since season 1, she's been "the" GOT villain, in my eyes. As scary as Night King is, as vicious as Ramsay, Joffery and Littlefinger were, Cersei always been the most dangerous player. It doesn't hurt that I think she's also the most compelling and well acted one.

My feelings are opposite. I like Cersei (especially the actress), but she doesn't interest me as a main villain. And i doubt she'll be one in the books.

[ZeroBG82]

And the winner for the most unsatisfying death in GoT goes to...... Little Finger.

The hell, he didnt have ANY people on his side? Personal body guards, nothing? How the hell did he get played by Sansa? Because of "love"? That was horrible. He needed to go out in the middle of a way more devious plan. Cause what really did turning Sansa against Arya accomplish? That was just silly maneuvering.

I couldn't disagree more, this was the perfect and utterly satisfying comeuppance for Lord Baelish. He got played by Sansa because he believed she was the naive little twit he's been building, and isolating, since he first got his grubby little mitts on her back in King's Landing. His trying to turn Sansa against Arya is a classic abusive move. Isolate her so that she can only rely on him, make her believe that everyone who loves her is out to get her or doesn't understand her. But thanks to the very ties that Littlefinger was trying to sever she sees through his garbage at last. Only fitting that Baelish would go out getting outplayed at last. And that his first betrayal in the series, that of Ned Stark, should be his ultimate undoing. And the two girls who have suffered so much for that betrayal? Payback for the execution on the steps of the Great Sept at last.

Also beautifully thematic. Ned (and Jon) believe that the execution should be carried out by whoever passes the sentence. And here, the metaphor is one of unity. Bran gave the evidence, Sansa gave the order, Arya wielded the blade, but they did so as one. The pack. In this darkest hour, with winter finally at hand, the Starks are back.

And yes, it was just "silly maneuvering." That was the whole point. Littlefinger is nothing but. Even facing the threat of the dead he keeps right on playing his little games, always looking for advantage, leverage, power. Arya and Jon were just pieces to be pushed aside in his manipulations, and Sansa his pawn for ultimate power. Petr Baelish, for all his intellect and charm, couldn't see the bigger picture beyond himself, and it finally gets him killed. There is thematic resonance there for Cersei as well, who remains focused solely on herself at the expense of all life. There is nothing and nobody Cersei wouldn't kill, including Jaime, to hold onto her power. In many ways, she's the perfect echo of the Night's King.

[XPac]

Like someone said on another message board WHY do we need Cersei to be a obstacle? That's the Night King's Job.

She's the villain with the greatest amount of emotional investment in. Therefore her defeat potentially delivers the biggest pay off. And she sits on the Iron Throne, which for several characters is the end game.

I won't say the story HAS to operate in that order... it can theoretically work either way. But I do see the rationale or saving Cersi for that.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

She's the villain with the greatest amount of emotional investment in..

Which is why i had a feeling she would be the show's end game back in like season 6. The WW are so underdeveloped this was bound to be the outcome for at least the TV story. I personally blame GRRM for not properly fleshing them out. My sister asking me what's his goal after everything is dead and frozen over, and i told her i don't know.

[FishyZombie]

My feelings are opposite. I like Cersei (especially the actress), but she doesn't interest me as a main villain. And i doubt she'll be one in the books.

Michael C, another poster here laid it out better than I can:

There's nothing soap-opera-y about the White Walkers. They are purely a military problem. Which means they don't work as the main villain of an entire season, not even a short one. Game of Thrones is, at it's core, a soap-opera. A really well done soap opera, but a soap-opera nonetheless. It's almost the answer to the question, "what if a soap opera full of weird affairs and people turning out to be, dun dun dun, the long lost secret love-child of a princess who died in childbirth and therefore the secret nephew of the woman he's falling in love with, and also, dun dun dun, the half brother of the dwarf who is secretly the child of an affair between the king and the lady, was set in a low-fantasy dark ages world of dragons and wizards?"

This is a soap-opera. It's a really well done soap-opera that hides its soap-operaness behind the magic trick of Dungeons and Dragons, but it's still a soap opera, and it doesn't work transformed into a pure military campaign. So you've got to keep the twins who are, dun dun dun, secretly lovers whose children aren't really the kings but the product of their incest!

[XPac]

Which is why i had a feeling she would be the show's end game back in like season 6. The WW are so underdeveloped this was bound to be the outcome for at least the TV story. I personally blame GRRM for not properly fleshing them out. My sister asking me what's his goal after everything is dead and frozen over, and i told her i don't know.

In Cersi and the Night King we see 2 different formulas for making a villain.

With Cersi, they humanize her, allowing us to develop a emotional investment in her. We see and understand her struggles and her conlicts. With the Night King, we know next to nothing about them and that in a lot of ways makes them scarier. We don't know who they are or what they are, and that generates a mystique that forces our own imagination to sort of fill in the gaps.

I think GoT using both actually makes for a nice contrast.

[Sighphi]

Tyrion flat out said Dany would have attacked Kings Landing if he didn't talk her out of it. So there's reason to believe Dany MIGHT try it.

Yes, he flat out said he has been keeping her in check successfully. Plus her words during the meeting showed this.
There's nothing on the show from Cersei's POV that would show this needed to be done.

I couldn't disagree more, this was the perfect and utterly satisfying comeuppance for Lord Baelish. He got played by Sansa because he believed she was the naive little twit he's been building, and isolating, since he first got his grubby little mitts on her back in King's Landing. His trying to turn Sansa against Arya is a classic abusive move. Isolate her so that she can only rely on him, make her believe that everyone who loves her is out to get her or doesn't understand her. But thanks to the very ties that Littlefinger was trying to sever she sees through his garbage at last. Only fitting that Baelish would go out getting outplayed at last. And that his first betrayal in the series, that of Ned Stark, should be his ultimate undoing. And the two girls who have suffered so much for that betrayal? Payback for the execution on the steps of the Great Sept at last.

Also beautifully thematic. Ned (and Jon) believe that the execution should be carried out by whoever passes the sentence. And here, the metaphor is one of unity. Bran gave the evidence, Sansa gave the order, Arya wielded the blade, but they did so as one. The pack. In this darkest hour, with winter finally at hand, the Starks are back.

And yes, it was just "silly maneuvering." That was the whole point. Littlefinger is nothing but. Even facing the threat of the dead he keeps right on playing his little games, always looking for advantage, leverage, power. Arya and Jon were just pieces to be pushed aside in his manipulations, and Sansa his pawn for ultimate power. Petr Baelish, for all his intellect and charm, couldn't see the bigger picture beyond himself, and it finally gets him killed. There is thematic resonance there for Cersei as well, who remains focused solely on herself at the expense of all life. There is nothing and nobody Cersei wouldn't kill, including Jaime, to hold onto her power. In many ways, she's the perfect echo of the Night's King.

Sansa has said several times how she hates and will never be with him. LF continuously ignoring this was straight up stupid. Which it would be fine if he was caught, like i said, with his pants down in a more devious plan. This wasnt anything great happening here. This was like Al Capone being caught on tax evasion, why the hell are you not doing simple things you need to be doing. Why isnt LF keeping some backup in case she turned. He just had another cool speech recently about seeing all possible outcomes! How did he not have a plan for Sansa finally turning on him?

[XPac]

Yes, he flat out said he has been keeping her in check successfully. Plus her words during the meeting showed this.
There's nothing on the show from Cersei's POV that would show this needed to be done.



Sansa has said several times how she hates and will never be with him. LF continuously ignoring this was straight up stupid. Which it would be fine if he was caught, like i said, with his pants down in a more devious plan. This wasnt anything great happening here. This was like Al Capone being caught on tax evasion, why the hell are you not doing simple things you need to be doing. Why isnt LF keeping some backup in case she turned. He just had another cool speech recently about seeing all possible outcomes! How did he not have a plan for Sansa finally turning on him?

Dany gave her word based on a cease fire. If there's no cease fire, there's no word to break because she hasn't agreed to anything. Plus Cersi straight up said that she doens't necessarily take Danys word as face value. She'll do with with Jon because he's Ned Starks son, but not Dany.

I think the bottom line is if there's even a possibility that Dany might decide to deal with Cersi first (and you can argue that's not an invalid choice), she's better off agreeing to the cease fire. There's nothing to lose by not doing so.

[Sighphi]

Dany gave her word based on a cease fire. If there's no cease fire, there's no word to break because she hasn't agreed to anything. Plus Cersi straight up said that she doens't necessarily take Danys word as face value. She'll do with with Jon because he's Ned Starks son, but not Dany.

I think the bottom line is if there's even a possibility that Dany might decide to deal with Cersi first (and you can argue that's not an invalid choice), she's better off agreeing to the cease fire. There's nothing to lose by not doing so.

But we needed a scene showing that. So far we have nothing but tactical strikes from Dany and this meeting THEY setup to stop hostilities because there's a bigger issue.

What we have in the show is a scene where she rightfully walks out.

Then a scene where she comes back boast about going to help without any stipulations.

Then a reveal that she is doing EXACTLY what she was going to do at the start. Now with an added lie.

Which delays a possible attack for what? 2 days before they figure out the Lanister army is not moving?

[Flash Gordon]

Thanks a lot for putting that damn conversation between Sam and Brandon over Dany and Jon finally getting together. I wanted that cathartic moment to play out in the moment, ya know? Everybody needs some wholesome loving, right?

Also, wow Sam must have hopped on the express back uptown. He got to Winterfell in no time, despite all the ice storms and undead armies AND having a small child with him. They really do not care at all about logistics anymore.

Remember when they kept Bran out of the show for a whole season to depict the passage of time and how long it took for him to travel?

I'm not overly fond of Cersei being a main villian either. I mean, yeah, she's not a good queen and she's done tons of bad shite...but is she really this good at the game? Enough of an obstacle that Daenerys would actually have to show up to talk with her? I don't see it. Daenerys is big league. I don't see her having to waste time with this. Just go to King's Landing and help aid the people to overthrow the Lannisters. The people in King's Landing are starving, they just saw 3 kings die in a decade, and winter is here. I can't see them being 100% loyal to Cersei's claim to the throne.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

She's the villain with the greatest amount of emotional investment in. Therefore her defeat potentially delivers the biggest pay off. And she sits on the Iron Throne, which for several characters is the end game.

I won't say the story HAS to operate in that order... it can theoretically work either way. But I do see the rationale or saving Cersi for that.

Which is why i had a feeling she would be the show's end game back in like season 6. The WW are so underdeveloped this was bound to be the outcome for at least the TV story. I personally blame GRRM for not properly fleshing them out. My sister asking me what's his goal after everything is dead and frozen over, and i told her i don't know.

Michael C, another poster here laid it out better than I can:

In Cersi and the Night King we see 2 different formulas for making a villain.

With Cersi, they humanize her, allowing us to develop a emotional investment in her. We see and understand her struggles and her conlicts. With the Night King, we know next to nothing about them and that in a lot of ways makes them scarier. We don't know who they are or what they are, and that generates a mystique that forces our own imagination to sort of fill in the gaps.

I think GoT using both actually makes for a nice contrast.

I can only speak for myself, but i got invested in the Night King perfectly fine. I find the WW's as a whole creepily intriguing. Yeah i wanted more background stuff with the children of the forest etc. But as is, i was totally engaged. I probably just see GoT through a different lens, and that's fine. It is what it is.

[XPac]

But we needed a scene showing that. So far we have nothing but tactical strikes from Dany and this meeting THEY setup to stop hostilities because there's a bigger issue.

What we have in the show is a scene where she rightfully walks out.

Then a scene where she comes back boast about going to help without any stipulations.

Then a reveal that she is doing EXACTLY what she was going to do at the start. Now with an added lie.

Which delays a possible attack for what? 2 days before they figure out the Lanister army is not moving?

They were already back at Dragonstone planning their own transportation to Winterell. It's entirely possible they may not even know the Lannisters army aren't coming until it's already too late to do anything about it.

At the time Cersi made the lie, her armies already surrounded the city and her dragons were in position to turn down Kings Landing. There's was an immediate threat. She can flatted the city by the end of the day if she feels like it. The lie ensures that won't happen. Again, Tyrion flat out said it's something Dany wanted to do. So from Cersis' perspective, it's a possibility.