Game of Thrones

[Da Boat]

You mean chaos is NOT a ladder despite the hype?

Hey it's just strange that for someone that watch Thrones, that you don't enjoy what is good about Thrones?

There is still room for conflicting factions, all just on one side moreso now. I support the WW being the focus, as they represent this existential apocalypse, this idea maybe this coming doom is the price for all the selfish distracting games (the game of thrones), in history there are times when politics take a back seat to a more primal fight to the death, a fight for survival.

But the most interesting part of history are political games and the wars, not the pestilence.

I have the feeling that GRRM's last book will be about more about you know, the GAME OF THRONES than zombies.

[Da Boat]

If hatred were a matter of logic, you'd be correct. But tribalism trumps logic. Always has, always will.

But I bet the population respected Oberyn yet the snakes killed his brother and his brother's son.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

GAME OF THRONES than zombies.

Dude, one book out of a series on 7 was called A Game of Thrones lol

[JBatmanFan05]

But the most interesting part of history are political games and the wars, not the pestilence.

I have the feeling that GRRM's last book will be about more about you know, the GAME OF THRONES than zombies.

I disagree about the last book (it will have games, but still be about using those games to defeat the "zombies" (Others)).

I think GRRM's ambitious goal is declaring war on the "political games and the wars" via this idea of the White Walkers/zombies, this existential foe everyone overlooked (due to petty selfish short sighted distraction) until it was perhaps too late.

Frankly, a lot less people would interested in this story if it wasn't building to this quite ambitious subject. The Wire was the same way, ambitiously tackled some very very macro topics about criminal justice and government and power.


You apparently just see the "zombies" as representing mere pestilence and I very much don't. This story is now about whether humans can ever put aside/dial down the political games and internal wars for a time for a higher purpose. (And then the books and show will likely make some final bittersweet comment on humanity's ability or not to escape selfish political games and wars....just like The Wire did for its macro subjects, its mostly bitter bittersweet ending comment, which was brilliantly handled)

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

I think GRRM's ambitious goal is declaring war on the "political games and the wars" via this idea of the White Walkers/zombies, this existential foe everyone overlooked (due to petty selfish short sighted distraction) until it was perhaps too late.

That's what i always got from the show, but people are trying to redefine the books intent because they prefer the political intrigue. I guess in those people's defense GRRM should have better defined the enemy. On the other hand that might have destroyed their mystique. But as is, i think their characterization is understandable. .

[JBatmanFan05]

The movie Darkest Hour about Churchill was kinda a microcosm of what GoT is getting it. You have brand new PM Churchill plagued by ambitious power-clutching political enemies (Halifax, Chamberlain) while the Nazis and Axis are winning and getting closer and closer to taking over England. And finally, unpopular Churchill builds a coalition (of friends and foes) to end the bitter constant political infighting with his Nazi-appeasement political rivals and...the rest is history.

Here, Dany, Jon, Jaime, Tyrion, etc are all broadly the Churchill analog vs Cersei Chamberlain and Cersei Halifax (since Baelish and Tywin and Aerys and Robert etc are all gone now).

Rhaegar was the last big enough noble really before all this that really believed the old tales of supernatural foes. GRRM has done a genius job of having so many layers of tragedy to Rhaegar and Lyanna's doom. Westeros lost Rhaegar's wisdom/foresight, his rule, his ability to end the Rebellion more peacefully, etc, etc. GRRM subversively made Robert's fatal victory over Rhaegar at the Trident a black moment in Westerosi history.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

The movie Darkest Hour about Churchill was kinda a microcosm of what GoT is getting it. You have brand new PM Churchill plagued by ambitious power-clutching political enemies (Halifax, Chamberlain) while the Nazis and Axis are winning and getting closer and closer to taking over England. And finally, unpopular Churchill builds a coalition (of friends and foes) to end the bitter constant political infighting with his Nazi-appeasement political rivals and...the rest is history.

Here, Dany, Jon, Jaime, Tyrion, etc are all broadly the Churchill analog vs Cersei Chamberlain and Cersei Halifax (since Baelish and Tywin and Aerys and Robert etc are all gone now).

Rhaegar was the last big enough noble really before all this that really believed the old tales of supernatural foes. GRRM has done a genius job of having so many layers of tragedy to Rhaegar and Lyanna's doom. Westeros lost Rhaegar's wisdom, his rule, his ability to end the Rebellion more peacefully, etc, etc.

Somebody at another board i go to said George is outstanding when it comes to political intrigue, and historical fiction, But terrible with low/dark fantasy stuff. Which is why people tend to disregard it.

[JBatmanFan05]

Somebody at another board i go to said George is outstanding when it comes to political intrigue, and historical fiction, But terrible with low/dark fantasy stuff. Which is why people tend to disregard it.

I'm not an expert on the genre and what defines "low/dark fantasy," but ASOFAI/GoT is pretty goshdarn dark and subversive so my outsider reaction is like: What? It all paints a very grim cynical view of humanity. So I can really not care if he doesn't meet fantasy diehards standards of more common dark "sword and sorcery" or Tolkien fare. That GRRM dials down some of the tropes (at least for a time) and injects plays on real world history makes his fantasy far more interesting for me.

ASOFAI/GoT has been the icebreaker for me on fantasy. I've always favored sci-fi, crime, gothic/horror and spy fiction.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

I'm not an expert on the genre and what defines "low/dark fantasy," but ASOFAI/GoT is pretty goshdarn dark and subversive so my outsider reaction is like: What? It all paints a very grim cynical view of humanity. So I can really not care if he doesn't meet fantasy diehards standards of more common dark "sword and sorcery" or Tolkien fare. That GRRM dials down some of the tropes (at least for a time) and injects plays on real world history makes his fantasy far more interesting for me.

ASOFAI/GoT has been the icebreaker for me on fantasy. I've always favored sci-fi, crime, gothic/horror and spy fiction.

I think they were referring to the lack of development of the fantasy aspects, seeing as how it's not as developed as the game of thrones conflict it self. Which is why fellow posters like Da Boat don't really care about it.

[Da Boat]

I disagree about the last book (it will have games, but still be about using those games to defeat the "zombies" (Others)).

I think GRRM's ambitious goal is declaring war on the "political games and the wars" via this idea of the White Walkers/zombies, this existential foe everyone overlooked (due to petty selfish short sighted distraction) until it was perhaps too late.

Frankly, a lot less people would interested in this story if it wasn't building to this quite ambitious subject. The Wire was the same way, ambitiously tackled some very very macro topics about criminal justice and government and power.


You apparently just see the "zombies" as representing mere pestilence and I very much don't. This story is now about whether humans can ever put aside/dial down the political games and internal wars for a time for a higher purpose. (And then the books and show will likely make some final bittersweet comment on humanity's ability or not to escape selfish political games and wars....just like The Wire did for its macro subjects, its mostly bitter bittersweet ending comment, which was brilliantly handled)

I know what they represent. But the political games is what makes GoT what it is. The White Walkers spell the end. And I know there has to be an end but still.

[Da Boat]

I just realised the Stark name and house is essentially dead. Jon is a Targaryan, Bran cannot procreate and Sansa and Arya if they marry their offspring will carry their husband's names.

[AndrewCrossett]

Do we know that Bran can't procreate? Or that he wouldn't be able to after this is over and he (maybe) isn't the Three Eyed Raven anymore?

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

I noticed that a lot of houses are potentially dead, Starks, the Boltons, maybe the Karstarks, Freys, Aryns maybe, Tyrells,

[AndrewCrossett]

Boltons and Tyrells are definitely dead. Karstarks and Arryns are still around as of now. Not sure about the Freys... Walder's heir didn't really take part in his father's intrigues and I don't know if he was present for the poison toast.

If Bran can't have children, then the only way the Stark line can continue past the current generation would be if Sansa (or Arya) becomes queen. GRRM seems to use the British rules of succession and according to them a sovereign queen is the only woman who can pass her own family name along to her children.

[JBatmanFan05]

I'm usually not one to think a House is so easily dead. You see with the Lannisters that many that aren't Tywin and his brood (probably) have the name Lannister, which means the House can possibly live on (with or without power or the same level of power).

It's probably happened with many Houses that some unpowerful portion of a family comes into the main power due to lack of heirs, battle losses, etc.


I know Reginald Lannister (looked up his name), who Tywin sent home in S2 for insubordination, is not in the books, but he's an example of potential distant relatives bearing your House name.