Game of Thrones

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

It's just odd that fans conflated a show trying to depict women somewhat realistically with it having some kind of pro-woman message, when that couldn't be farther from the truth. The thing that these fans seem to miss is that most of the women in the show, just like most influential women in real life, only care about increasing their own power and social status and couldn't care less about improving the condition of women generally. Indeed most of them seem to bemoan the fact that they were born female, since they could have accomplished their goals much more easily had they been men, and show nothing but disdain for the silly birds who don't care about seizing power or kicking ass and just want to play dress up and dream about knights in shining armor all day.

Like I said it's complicated, most use the argument that it's fantasy and that they could have done whatever they wanted in terms of representation, and none misogynistic/sexist tropes. So the medieval history excuse don't work for them. It is what it is.

[Wandering_Wand]

It still rubbed alot of female viewers the wrong way. Added to the fact they think GoT just fridged it's sole black female character, and turned Brienne into a blubbering mess over Jamie, and made Dani into a cliched trope about mad queens. I'm not saying I agree with the criticisms, but the optics don't look good.

Have to disagree with you on this. Hear me out:

How many male characters (minor and major, not counting the thousands in every army) have been tortured and/or killed?

Cersei has been one of the most powerful characters since the beginning.

Dany has seen a classic “rise from the ashes” type of story to being a queen of dragons and freeing people through an entire continent + inspiring an “unconquerable” Dothraki horde.

Arya has been turned into a ninja badass.

Sansa has become a power broker (although one could argue about what was done to her getting to that point).

Missandei lasted for multiple seasons as a trusted advisor and friend to Dany.

Melisandre helped end the long night and saw her greater purpose fulfilled.

Yara, although abused (far less than her brother Theon, although he was a POS in the beginning), has also been a power broker and leads the Iron Islands now.

Margery Tyrell was a woman of the people and everyone loved her, she was depicted rather well.

Edit: I know I’m missing at least a handful more...


I think women have been depicted rather strongly and appropriately (perhaps more than what people can contextually understand considering ASOIAF is based in medieval influences). I think the optics don’t look good to those purposely seeking stuff like that out. The women in my family love GoT and love cheering for both men and women in the show.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

I don't read the books, but I figured that at least SOME of the controversial elements D&D included in the show are traceable to the source material. But GRRM fans insists it's D&D's fault.

What I think the real problem is, is that the book series predates social media, and woke Twitter. So a lot of people didn't exactly know what they were getting in this show, in terms of content. To a lesser extent the same can be said about The Walking Dead. Face it, not a lot of people read books, and they're a lot less prone to scrutiny as a medium. As opposed to TV shows and movies.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

Have to disagree with you on this. .

I didn't make the complaints.

[XPac]

I don't read the books, but I figured that at least SOME of the controversial elements D&D included in the show are traceable to the source material. But GRRM fans insists it's D&D's fault.

What I think the real problem is, is that the book series predates social media, and woke Twitter. So a lot of people didn't exactly know what they were getting in this show, in terms of content. To a lesser extent the same can be said about The Walking Dead. Face it, not a lot of people read books, and they're a lot less prone to scrutiny as a medium. As opposed to TV shows and movies.

Books are judged by a different standard. There's stuff in Stephen Kings "It" which probably would have gotten the movie boycotted if it had made it in. You can get away with more in a book than you can in a TV or movie, especially if the show is a social phenomenon.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

Books are judged by a different standard. There's stuff in Stephen Kings "It" which probably would have gotten the movie boycotted if it had made it in. You can get away with more in a book than you can in a TV or movie, especially if the show is a social phenomenon.

Which is why I love books, the amount of freedom is exhilarating. For the most part you could include all kinds of dark twisted ideas, and outrageous genre busting high concepts in books. It's the last safe place for entertainment, against moral guardians and the PC crowd.


Edit: Also everyone knows about the Stephen King It subplot. Cause people won't shut up talking about it. Like they're trying to shock none readers....or something.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I don't read the books, but I figured that at least SOME of the controversial elements D&D included in the show are traceable to the source material. But GRRM fans insists it's D&D's fault.

What I think the real problem is, is that the book series predates social media, and woke Twitter. So a lot of people didn't exactly know what they were getting in this show, in terms of content. To a lesser extent the same can be said about The Walking Dead. Face it, not a lot of people read books, and they're a lot less prone to scrutiny as a medium. As opposed to TV shows and movies.

Some are, some aren’t. The reality is a girl thought to be a Stark being raped by Ramsay in Winterfell was necessary to the plot. In the books they used an early character introduced that was never really in the show. In the show they gave that plot to Sansa. It was much tamer in the show.

Also a lot of it is the same or similar things happening just slightly different, which book fans use as an out. Or something controversial that hasn’t happened yet in the books (Shireen) that likely will still happen but book fans claim plausible deniability

[stargazer01]

from IMDB,

D558jf1WkAAZpbc.jpg

[Punisher007]

GRRM just has more writing nuance to him. Also he's better at making the horrific crap not feel gratuitous and having a logic to it.

People hated the Sansa stuff in Season 5 not just because it was cliché as all heck, but because how they set it up made no sense and it was poorly-written and contrived. In the books there's more going on with the Northern Plot than just "Ramsay torments a woman." But the show cut out pretty much ALL of that storyline and context, yet felt like they HAD to keep the "Ramsay abuses a woman part of it" even though in the show it makes no sense. Then it came across as being more about Theon than anything else. Same with Euron capturing Yara.

The show took an actual interesting dichotomy from how the rest of Westeros treats women (Dorne), and removed ALL of the interesting difference and butchered it entirely.

The infamous Cersei/Jamie fiasco (which was never followed up upon).

Trying to make "badasses" while forgetting to make them interesting characters with dimension.

Etc.

The thing is, GRRM ain't perfect, but he gets it in a way that the show does not. Heck you could just take Ellaria Sand alone and what the show did to her and write entire papers on how the show doesn't get it.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

Books are judged by a different standard. There's stuff in Stephen Kings "It" which probably would have gotten the movie boycotted if it had made it in. You can get away with more in a book than you can in a TV or movie, especially if the show is a social phenomenon.

When it comes to popularity you have to take the good with the bad. The bigger the platform the bigger the scrutiny. GoT grew beyond its insular book fandom. I think book fans are use to outrageous things that have been previously mentioned by Madam. But general audiences are still use to bland network TV and mainstream films. GoT, and similar draw more scrutiny because of the violence, sex, etc. But now it also has to contend with people criticizing it over representation or lack thereof, setting be damned.

[stargazer01]

the extreme feminists complain about everything. they want the females always on top no matter what. that's not realistic or necessary. I mean, I was fine with Brienne's characterization in the last episodes. Yes, she got her heart broken, but nobody forced her to fall and sleep with Jaime. It was her decision and I'm sure she enjoyed it. The important thing is that I think she knows Jaime really cares for her, but he had a moral duty to do try to stop Cersei.

Dany, on the other hand, I don't feel comfortable with her characterization lately because it's so predictable (many expected it it seems), plus I don't see her as that power hungry person deep down. I think she's a good person who cares about the innocent. I really wanted something better for her.

Sansa has been this way since last season. She can't trust people outside her circle, and I can't blame her. Of course she was going to tell someone about Jon's secret. If Jon really wanted to support Dany completely, he should have kept it to himself. But then where is the fun in that.

Like others said, you have to think about the setting in this series too, so a woman has a much harder time being independent and strong. I'm a female, btw.

[XPac]

the extreme feminists complain about everything. they want the females always on top no matter what. that's not realistic or necessary. I mean, I was fine with Brienne's characterization in the last episodes. Yes, she got her heart broken, but nobody forced her to fall and sleep with Jaime. It was her decision and I'm sure she enjoyed it. The important thing is that I think she knows Jaime really cares for her, but he had a moral duty to do try to stop Cersei.

Dany, on the other hand, I don't feel comfortable with her characterization lately because it's so predictable (many expected it it seems), plus I don't see her as that power hungry person deep down. I think she's a good person who cares about the innocent. I really wanted something better for her.

Sansa has been this way since last season. She can't trust people outside her circle, and I can't blame her. Of course she was going to tell someone about Jon's secret. If Jon really wanted to support Dany completely, he should have kept it to himself. But then where is the fun in that.

Like others said, you have to think about the setting in this series too, so a woman has a much harder time being independent and strong. I'm a female, btw.

Jon really was naive to think that Sansa would keep his secret. He's just lucky twitter hadn't been invested yet. I think it took Sansa all of 5 minutes to spill the beans.

That's probably Jons biggest weakness. He mistakenly believes other people are as innately honest as he is. We saw at the very start of season 1 how honest Sansa can be. Not that she's a bad person overall... but she clearly doesn't have the same hang ups about honor that her brother and father have.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

from IMDB,

D558jf1WkAAZpbc.jpg

Just so you know episode 4 was reported to have over 2000 votes of 1 star hours before the episode aired.

[stargazer01]

Just so you know episode 4 was reported to have over 2000 votes of 1 star hours before the episode aired.

like all the other episodes in the series usually are.

[Theleviathan]

Yeah, they butchered most characters really. Euron is ridiculous,.

I'm sorry, which part of the book's version of Euron was not ridiculous? He's a god damn sexy, magical, viking, pirate, ninja wizard.

If anything....he's LESS ridiculous.

Also, for anyone that thinks GRRM doesn't have his own host of problems I give you Jeyne Poole. Here's the truth - anything you think the show handled badly in terms of how gratuitous or sensitive it is? Boils down to the medium. Shock value in a book is limited by your imagination and that is almost always more limited than a visual medium. The books are full of gory, sexually explicit stuff that is completely unnecessary to the plot. Hell, if I read one more page about Dany having diarrhea I think I might burn the books. (If you want another dozen examples....I'll be more than happy)