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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #6871
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    Unless someone kills it... like they did the other 2.



    The Unsullied lost half their number at Winterfell, probably a few more at Kings Landing (including some from literal friendly fire, most likely). The Dothraki are decimated too. She won't have any supporters among the lords of the other lands now... not even Gendry, whose home she just destroyed and friends she just killed. Without the dragon, all the massed forces of the Seven Kingdoms would be enough to overwhelm the remnants of the Unsullied and Dothraki.

    In fact, if Arya has one kill left in her it might be Drogon rather than Dany. In fact you wouldn't necessarily have to even kill him... blind him, disable his wings, trap him somewhere Dany can't get to him.
    If the Starks really unified and worked together, they probably could unseat Dany with minimal bloodshed. Bran can potentially negate the Dragon by Warging into it, and there's a descent chance Arya can take out Dany. That just leaves a powerful army leaderless in a foreigh land. They'd probably just leave at that point.

  2. #6872
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    Well, I called it: the writers weren't clever enough to do something interesting with Euron by having him figure out Cersei's baby wasn't his.

    Also, Drogon blows out a section of wall and somehow all 20,000 members of the Golden Company are suddenly defeated? Don't get me wrong, I loved the sacking of the city, but given that it looked like the entire 20,000 man army was stationed outside the walls of King's Landing, their demise was so quick it was disappointing.
    MAGNETO was right,TONY was right, VARYS was right.

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  3. #6873
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor-of-Dragons View Post
    Doesn't change the fact it was terribly executed. It was, there's nothing that rationalize what Dani did to KL. People just accept it cause it's a plot point that was reached. If this had been The Walking Dead people wouldn't have let that shit slide lol.
    Agreed.

    It made no sense to me that she was going on about how the people here haven't turned against Cersei. These aren't abused slaves but free people who, from their perspective, have been kept safe from the civil war that raged across the kingdom and it was because she (and family) protected them.

    Also, I don't recall Dany trying to rally the people of the south to lead a revolt. She got the north on her side, but then just parked her army at the gate and demanded Cersei's surrender. She hadn't shown any kindness or willingness to help the people but, worse, they didn't have a reason to need help.

    Dany went from hero of the people to mass murderer without anything more than 'well, these people should have done like those slaves did when I inspired them to rebel!' So let's burn them all? After they surrender?

    I'm fine with a storyline that leads Dany down the path of her father, but due to the shortened ending for the show, it really feels like they skipped a step. I could see her going for the Red Keep for vengeance against Cersei for killing Missandrei, and maybe doing some damage along the way, but nothing to me came across as a 'slaughter the innocent babies!' trigger.

  4. #6874
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Agreed.

    It made no sense to me that she was going on about how the people here haven't turned against Cersei. These aren't abused slaves but free people who, from their perspective, have been kept safe from the civil war that raged across the kingdom and it was because she (and family) protected them.

    Also, I don't recall Dany trying to rally the people of the south to lead a revolt. She got the north on her side, but then just parked her army at the gate and demanded Cersei's surrender. She hadn't shown any kindness or willingness to help the people but, worse, they didn't have a reason to need help.

    Dany went from hero of the people to mass murderer without anything more than 'well, these people should have done like those slaves did when I inspired them to rebel!' So let's burn them all? After they surrender?

    I'm fine with a storyline that leads Dany down the path of her father, but due to the shortened ending for the show, it really feels like they skipped a step. I could see her going for the Red Keep for vengeance against Cersei for killing Missandrei, and maybe doing some damage along the way, but nothing to me came across as a 'slaughter the innocent babies!' trigger.
    I think Danys expectation that the people in Kingslanding might revolt might in part be on Tyrion. He was likely selling the notion that the people of Kings Landing didn't support Cersi to motivate her NOT to kill feel the need to kill them. But that probably created an expectation that they would rally against Cersi, which they didn't. Because to them Cersi at least was the devil they knew. They had no particular reason to trust or like Dany especially, and were likely and unfairly prejudiced against her from the start because of the legacy of the Mad King.

    I think she simply didn't have a social or political understanding of the people she was conquering, and that worked against her. She needed to work on the PR aspects of her campaign more, but wasn't in the right frame of mind to do it. There was greater incentive in the North, where she fighting side by side with them against the Walkers. And where she was frankly trying to develop a good relationship with Jons family. But in KL there were no such bonds.

  5. #6875
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    With all due respect, you're skipping some very important parts of the book as well as the show.

    1. Viserys may have started out saving Dany out of sisterly affection, but he blamed her exclusively for their mother's death. She was a means to an end - Targaryens marry their sisters to take the throne, so he needed his sister in order to restore Targaryen rule. She became a symbol and an object that he treated like dirt.

    2. He didn't just knock her around a bit. He physically, emotionally and sexually abused her and then sold her to be wedded and raped by Khal Drogo. From Dany's point of view, even if he had been the 'loving brother' you portray, this is the ultimate in betrayals. He promised her she would rule by his side, and then traded her like a goat to a barbarian. Oh yeah, and the night before she gets married, he tries to rape her.

    3. Despite having wise advisors, Viserys ignored them because he was a petulant child. He was told that the Dothraki don't buy and sell but receive and offer gifts, so he needed to be patient. But he was so arrogant and angry over the 'indignities' he felt he was suffering. He kept demanding his army *now* or else...what?

    4. He then became ridiculously jealous of Dany for being in a position over him, so much so that he grabs her by the throat and calls her a slut. When he's punished for his assault on her, it only makes him more angry. He tries to steal the dragon eggs for his own ends and when that sister he supposedly cares for so much tries to be nice to him and offer him clothing fit for a Khal, he hits her again.

    5. Here's the kicker you left out - he drew his sword in a holy place, and in front of Drogo, he threatened to kill Dany *and* their unborn child to get what he wanted because he sold his sister and wanted payment. He held his nephew and sister hostage in front of Khal Drogo to get what he demanded despite being told to wait for it.

    So Dany, who had been beaten, abused, sold and degraded by her brother is oddly not upset that, right after he put a sword to her belly and threatened to cut out her unborn child because they were in a place where the Dothraki can't draw blood but *he* can? No, I don't blame her at all. She repeatedly reached out to him, and he assaulted and tried to rob and rape her, so yes, he may have started out years and years ago as a caring brother, but that went away a long time ago. In the books Dany was what, 13? So all she's really known is what her brother told her - that he saved her life, they were going to marry and take back what was rightfully his (not theirs). At no point does he ever show any love for his sister, only that he values her as a prop and then, later, as property. He believed he owned her and, in the end, he got what he deserved and I see no reason why Dany should have been at all sympathetic after all he had done to her.
    I didn’t ignore that. I acknowledge that Visery’s is a very flawed character who treated Dany poorly. You are overselling a lot of aspects to it however.

    The point is that Dany owes Viserys her life. She knows this. Dany also does admit that Viserys wasn’t always that way and he grew colder over time.

    Also some of what you said is flatout untrue. Targaryens don’t need to marry another Targaryen. Rheagar was the crown prince and married a Dornish women. Viserys could have married some wealthy heiress or Lady (hell their was a plan to marry him off to Arianna Martell) to gain an army. He didn’t really need Dany.

    Also people need to get off the whole “he sold her thing”. This is a world where all Nobel marriages are political and it has nothing to do with love. No major character actually married someone they wanted to that wasn’t orchestrated by their custodian (parent or otherwise). Ned married Catelyn for an army. Viserys was going to be forced to marry Arianne for an army. Robert married Cersei to forge an alliance. Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey out of politics. Jon Aryn married Lysa for an army. The one character who actually married for love was Robb Stark and he was brutally punished for it. So the idea that Dany marrying Drogo for an army was some massive affront is silly. Viserys was absolutely being positioned for the same thing. Hell later on Dany was going to marry a Nobel in Mereen for similar political reasons. That’s just how things work in this show. You can’t apply modern conventions to it or you have to rip everyone. Dany isn’t special here.

    As for point three, the problem was that their was an implicit understanding that the only reason Dany was married to Drogo for an army to conquer Westeros and it wouldn’t have been agreed to otherwise. Then after the fact he was told it didn’t work that way and was basically being mistreated and mocked by his supposed army. Also not for nothing but one of Viserys advisors was a spy who absolutely hated his guts and was secretly working for his enemy.

    As for point 4, you mean like how Dany is currently jealous of Jon? Not very different.

    And five, Visery’s didn’t understand Dothraki customs and was pretty much being set up to fail at that point. Also that was kind of the low end for him and complete downfall.

    It also was portrayed differently in the book. Danearys always acknowledged both the good and bad of him. The key change was that she married Drogo and saw his weakness in dealing with the khalassar and how little respect he had and was stunned when a spy like Jorah was actively telling her how terrible he was. At that she lost faith in him and viewed him as unsuited to rule..And then yeah she coldly watched him die when she could have spoke up while he was begging for his life and really had no leverage. And not for nothing a big part of this was that Dany found herself being very popular with a group of pillaging barbarians known for killing and raping.

    So there’s a bit more depth than how you are portraying it

  6. #6876
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think Danys expectation that the people in Kingslanding might revolt might in part be on Tyrion. He was likely selling the notion that the people of Kings Landing didn't support Cersi to motivate her NOT to kill feel the need to kill them. But that probably created an expectation that they would rally against Cersi, which they didn't. Because to them Cersi at least was the devil they knew. They had no particular reason to trust or like Dany especially, and were likely and unfairly prejudiced against her from the start because of the legacy of the Mad King.

    I think she simply didn't have a social or political understanding of the people she was conquering, and that worked against her. She needed to work on the PR aspects of her campaign more, but wasn't in the right frame of mind to do it. There was greater incentive in the North, where she fighting side by side with them against the Walkers. And where she was frankly trying to develop a good relationship with Jons family. But in KL there were no such bonds.
    I can see that angle, but again, I think they sort of missed making that clear. She was shown to be merciful to the weak, and vengeful to the wicked which is why the people loved her back home. Here, she never gave the people a chance to see her as anything but a crazy Targaryen with a big scary dragon (that Cersei was protecting them against, having killed the other one) making demands at the gate.

    I think what they needed more time for was to show that even when she is shown to do kind things and take out bad people that the people of Westeros still rejected her.

    I saw everything in place for her to go nuts on Cersei, but nothing to have her igniting children in the streets. That she might not have cared about whether or not they died would have been one thing, but she wsa intentionally burning crowds of fleeing, screaming innocents.

  7. #6877
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Thinking about everything in retrospect. Cersei hasn't really been a player since season 5. That was the last time she had power and influence to flex. Cersei had nothing to do in season 6, until the Sept blew up. Season 7, Cersei had even less to do and even fewer interactions. Season 8 Cersei stands around a lot and sits sometimes. The King's Landing story dried up a long time ago. But D&D are big fans of Lena Heady the actress. So she stayed way past her sell by date.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I can see that angle, but again, I think they sort of missed making that clear. She was shown to be merciful to the weak, and vengeful to the wicked which is why the people loved her back home. Here, she never gave the people a chance to see her as anything but a crazy Targaryen with a big scary dragon (that Cersei was protecting them against, having killed the other one) making demands at the gate.

    I think what they needed more time for was to show that even when she is shown to do kind things and take out bad people that the people of Westeros still rejected her.

    I saw everything in place for her to go nuts on Cersei, but nothing to have her igniting children in the streets. That she might not have cared about whether or not they died would have been one thing, but she wsa intentionally burning crowds of fleeing, screaming innocents.
    I don't even think she saw them as women and children, she was in full rage mode. For her they were targets, nothing else.

  9. #6879
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaelforce View Post
    with all due respect, you're skipping some very important parts of the book as well as the show.

    1. Viserys may have started out saving dany out of sisterly affection, but he blamed her exclusively for their mother's death. She was a means to an end - targaryens marry their sisters to take the throne, so he needed his sister in order to restore targaryen rule. She became a symbol and an object that he treated like dirt.

    2. He didn't just knock her around a bit. He physically, emotionally and sexually abused her and then sold her to be wedded and raped by khal drogo. From dany's point of view, even if he had been the 'loving brother' you portray, this is the ultimate in betrayals. He promised her she would rule by his side, and then traded her like a goat to a barbarian. Oh yeah, and the night before she gets married, he tries to rape her.

    3. Despite having wise advisors, viserys ignored them because he was a petulant child. He was told that the dothraki don't buy and sell but receive and offer gifts, so he needed to be patient. But he was so arrogant and angry over the 'indignities' he felt he was suffering. He kept demanding his army *now* or else...what?

    4. He then became ridiculously jealous of dany for being in a position over him, so much so that he grabs her by the throat and calls her a slut. When he's punished for his assault on her, it only makes him more angry. He tries to steal the dragon eggs for his own ends and when that sister he supposedly cares for so much tries to be nice to him and offer him clothing fit for a khal, he hits her again.

    5. Here's the kicker you left out - he drew his sword in a holy place, and in front of drogo, he threatened to kill dany *and* their unborn child to get what he wanted because he sold his sister and wanted payment. He held his nephew and sister hostage in front of khal drogo to get what he demanded despite being told to wait for it.

    So dany, who had been beaten, abused, sold and degraded by her brother is oddly not upset that, right after he put a sword to her belly and threatened to cut out her unborn child because they were in a place where the dothraki can't draw blood but *he* can? No, i don't blame her at all. She repeatedly reached out to him, and he assaulted and tried to rob and rape her, so yes, he may have started out years and years ago as a caring brother, but that went away a long time ago. In the books dany was what, 13? So all she's really known is what her brother told her - that he saved her life, they were going to marry and take back what was rightfully his (not theirs). At no point does he ever show any love for his sister, only that he values her as a prop and then, later, as property. He believed he owned her and, in the end, he got what he deserved and i see no reason why dany should have been at all sympathetic after all he had done to her.
    thank you!!!

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    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    What doesn't work for me is this "rage" and "madness" didn't come at a particularly emotional moment. She was shown to be operating a relatively cool head just before the attack. So for her to revert back into rage and grief with no apparent trigger is weird to me. Why, when she's won the battles and the bells are chiming, does she get that impulse? We can't get inside her head, but it's not apparent enough.

    There's also not a strong enough causal link between the people and her rage. Go burn the actual keep down. It's totally out of left field for her to go on such a rampage against people who had nothing to do with Cersei.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Well, I called it: the writers weren't clever enough to do something interesting with Euron by having him figure out Cersei's baby wasn't his.
    Yeah, I was waiting for this as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Thinking about everything in retrospect. Cersei hasn't really been a player since season 5. That was the last time she had power and influence to flex. Cersei had nothing to do in season 6, until the Sept blew up. Season 7, Cersei had even less to do and even fewer interactions. Season 8 Cersei stands around a lot and sits sometimes. The King's Landing story dried up a long time ago. But D&D are big fans of Lena Heady the actress. So she stayed way past her sell by date.
    That's what makes it more bitter. She should have died in season 5 or 6. And on top of that They were beating it into our heads for how long that all this infighting is pointless and the real threat is coming to kill them all.

    Then it’s “welp good thing that’s out of the way, back to regularly scheduled programming of the infighting we just told you was pointless”. They were setting it up to make characters like Cersei and Littlefinger look foolish and myopic by being solely obsessed with their scheming when none of it was going to matter and they were gonna die with everyone else, but then they basically validated them. Why should they have cared about the Night King?

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    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    What doesn't work for me is this "rage" and "madness" didn't come at a particularly emotional moment. She was shown to be operating a relatively cool head just before the attack. So for her to revert back into rage and grief with no apparent trigger is weird to me. Why, when she's won the battles and the bells are chiming, does she get that impulse? We can't get inside her head, but it's not apparent enough.
    Like I said, I think her decision to burn the city was planned, and not a sudden psychotic break. Her tears may have been out of grief for what she believed she had to do. Or just frustration that the people didn't love her as she thought she deserved.

  13. #6883
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor-of-Dragons View Post
    Doesn't change the fact it was terribly executed. It was, there's nothing that rationalize what Dani did to KL. People just accept it cause it's a plot point that was reached. If this had been The Walking Dead people wouldn't have let that shit slide lol.

    Is it any more rational than going to Qarth with virtually no leverage and simultaneously begging them o let her in but also saying that if they didn’t help her she would burn then to the ground as one of her many conquests once her dragons grew?

    Was it as rational as her plan to get an Unsullied army effectively being “ill trick him and have my dragon burn him”.?

    Or was it as rational as thinking she could just upset the balance of power in Mereen and it would go smoothly?

    Or as rational as thinking burning the male line of a Nobel house was going to go over well once they were no longer a threat?

  14. #6884
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    I didn’t ignore that. I acknowledge that Visery’s is a very flawed character who treated Dany poorly. You are overselling a lot of aspects to it however.

    The point is that Dany owes Viserys her life. She knows this. Dany also does admit that Viserys wasn’t always that way and he grew colder over time.

    Also some of what you said is flatout untrue. Targaryens don’t need to marry another Targaryen. Rheagar was the crown prince and married a Dornish women. Viserys could have married some wealthy heiress or Lady (hell their was a plan to marry him off to Arianna Martell) to gain an army. He didn’t really need Dany.

    Also people need to get off the whole “he sold her thing”. This is a world where all Nobel marriages are political and it has nothing to do with love. No major character actually married someone they wanted to that wasn’t orchestrated by their custodian (parent or otherwise). Ned married Catelyn for an army. Viserys was going to be forced to marry Arianne for an army. Robert married Cersei to forge an alliance. Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey out of politics. Jon Aryn married Lysa for an army. The one character who actually married for love was Robb Stark and he was brutally punished for it. So the idea that Dany marrying Drogo for an army was some massive affront is silly. Viserys was absolutely being positioned for the same thing. Hell later on Dany was going to marry a Nobel in Mereen for similar political reasons. That’s just how things work in this show. You can’t apply modern conventions to it or you have to rip everyone. Dany isn’t special here.

    As for point three, the problem was that their was an implicit understanding that the only reason Dany was married to Drogo for an army to conquer Westeros and it wouldn’t have been agreed to otherwise. Then after the fact he was told it didn’t work that way and was basically being mistreated and mocked by his supposed army. Also not for nothing but one of Viserys advisors was a spy who absolutely hated his guts and was secretly working for his enemy.

    As for point 4, you mean like how Dany is currently jealous of Jon? Not very different.

    And five, Visery’s didn’t understand Dothraki customs and was pretty much being set up to fail at that point. Also that was kind of the low end for him and complete downfall.

    It also was portrayed differently in the book. Danearys always acknowledged both the good and bad of him. The key change was that she married Drogo and saw his weakness in dealing with the khalassar and how little respect he had and was stunned when a spy like Jorah was actively telling her how terrible he was. At that she lost faith in him and viewed him as unsuited to rule..And then yeah she coldly watched him die when she could have spoke up while he was begging for his life and really had no leverage. And not for nothing a big part of this was that Dany found herself being very popular with a group of pillaging barbarians known for killing and raping.

    So there’s a bit more depth than how you are portraying it
    Except Dany figured out that he saved her life to use her as a prop. He is never shown demonstrating one ounce of affection towards her. And if I wasn't clear, I wasn't saying Targaryens need to marry in the family, just that that was how Viserys saw it, especially since Dany was supposed to marry big brother first. The goal he has is to restore himself to the throne and to make more little Targaryens with his sister. He wanted to make sure the pure Targaryen bloodline continued, and for that, he needed the only remaining pure Targaryen.

    And yes, he sold her. Those were his words. People who use that phrase aren't pulling it out of thin air. He flat out says he sold his sister for his army and would, to paraphrase, let every Dothraki screw her if it got him what he wanted. There's a difference between a politically arranged marriage and selling your sister as a whore, and the total indifference he shows in being willing to have her abused by an entire barbaric tribe goes right to the heart of what he thinks of his sister and how she views herself by that point.

    It isn't that Dany is 'special' in that regard. Littlefinger was clearly a villain when he gave Sansa to Bolton because he was an evil shit. He knew full well what would happen to her. Viserys was pretty confident that he was handing his sister over to vile and vicious barbarians and was willing to see her gang raped. The difference isn't in Dany being special, it's in Viserys for being evil and cruel about the entire endeavor. He is hardly portrayed as a hero or a saint in the book, either.

    As to the 'understanding,' that was the problem. Both Jorah and Ilyrio flat out told him it was not a 'sale' or a 'trade' but a 'gift' and that he needed to be patient to get his gift in return. He is the only one who keeps referring to it like a horse-trade, and his petulance is what got him killed.

    Viserys was *repeatedly* taught about Dothraki customs. He just considered them beneath his contempt. He wasn't being set up when his patron and his sworn servant keep telling him that his idea was *not* how Dothraki custom works. Not only does he learn their customs, btw, he openly *flaunts* them. "Your custom says you can't shed blood here, but I can!"

    Yes, in the books she sees the good and the bad in him, and she always tries to appeal to the good. In exchange for trying, though, she has gotten nothing but further scorn and abuse. And again, you skip that whole 'I will cut that baby out of your belly' part - threaten any mother with the murder of their unborn child (and, consequently, with their own death) and that pretty much seals the deal. Despite the fact that he traded her away not caring how they would treat her, when it turns out that she found her place among them, all it did was make him jealous and angry. If he truly cared one whit for his sister, then he would not have responded with violence to her kindness. She lost her faith in him when she saw what he truly was. She had been in denial because she loved her brother. It is the absolute textbook definition of an abused wife who stays with her husband despite how badly he hurts her. She loved her brother and refused to see what a horrible man he had become, and it took Jorah to help open her eyes to this.

    Her story has a lot more depth than how you're portraying it.

    Dany and Jon is a different kettle of fish altogether and not at all like Viserys and Dany. She and Jon love one another, and she has never once treated him poorly, even after he rejects her. Viserys pretty much despised Dany for having been responsible for their mother's desk and treated her horribly. She's not jealous of Jon, she sees him as a potential threat to everything she has done to this point.

  15. #6885
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    If she's murdering innocent women and children, she shouldn't be ruling. If they show is going to end, it shouldn't be with her on the Iron Throne. Not after what she just did. Even if Dany didn't do what she just did, most of the people would have had trouble trusting her... and unfortunately she only justified that mistrust.
    No one is innocent in Westeros.

    Of course it should be with her on the Iron throne. This show was never building up to a good ending, but at least it would be satisfying.

    She knows people wouldnít love or trust her thatís what she did what she just did. Iím not going against the girl with Godzilla in her pocket.

    Out of all the terrible, horrible excuses for humanity Iíve had to sit through on this throw the one decent enough character trying to change things was Danny. The idiocy of Robert, the cruel and sadistic Geoffrey, Cersi, Ramsey and all the terrible terrible people I forgot.

    Danny gave Cersi multiple chances. This is on Cersi.

    Long live the Queen of Dragons
    The J-man

    I post via my phone a lot, therefore I make the occasional grammatical error. Not an excuse just forewarning you. Feel free to call me out I won't mind.

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