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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7066
    For honor... Madam-Shogun-Assassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Thinking about it now, I can say season 8 is the worst season. The show stopped being great in season 4. When GRRM was still a producer on the show and D&D were adapting the best book (Storm of Sword- Book 3).

    Ranking the seasons:
    8. Season 8 - Awful
    7. Season 7 - Too many dumb things
    6. Season 5 - Betrayal Portrayal for Dorne, Stannis, Sansa and Cersei
    5. Season 6 - Not good but not terrible either
    4. Season 1 - A good introduction to this hard world
    3. Season 2 - Scramble For the Throne
    2. Season 3 - Red Wedding/Beheading - Good guys lose
    1. Season 4 - Watchers on the Wall - Kings and Hands Fall
    That's my rankings too

  2. #7067
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    Quote Originally Posted by stillanerd View Post

    The problem, of course, is that Benioff and Weiss had that outline, that blueprint, and basically steered events towards that conclusion, regardless of whether it made and sense or not. After all, they simplified and rewrote the whole Dornish storyline--and no surprise that wound up being the worst storyline of the entire series--and completely excised the Young Griff story for the sake of time and expediency. It's why we got all that "fast travel" and Genry running like the Flash in season 7. And it's why we had such an abrupt end to the White Walker threat that was building since the very first scene of the series. That's the problem when you're working with an outline rather than having books worth of material.
    I still don't think that's an excuse, D&D are still writers, and there's ENOUGH material to properly finish what they DID have.

  3. #7068
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    Also, For anyone trying to justify Dany’s whiplash heel turn, this from THR:

    “In any event, when Dany rested her dragon on a King's Landing wall and realized that she was victorious and the Iron Throne was (probably) hers, what — right then and there — prompted her to decide to burn the city?

    Nothing. Nothing at all.

    There was no proximate cause, no essential reason for the character to take that horrific action at that moment. To say that a character — or a person — has mental illness in their family tree and thus has no control over their actions is astoundingly reductive and plays into harmful and lazy stereotypes. It's also just boring writing to make a character do something stupid and then handwave it away with "Something, something mental illness!"

    That's not only offensive, that's a generality that does nothing to justify that drastic action in that particular moment. All in all, the show has done a piss-poor job of explaining why Daenerys would decide to destroy the very prize she had set her heart on ruling a decade ago. We watched eight seasons of a woman at least attempting to use or think about power differently. Until she didn't. Because … reasons.

    Because she had been burned by personal losses? No, sorry, that won't fly. The deaths she's endured recently have certainly contributed to her current mental state, but in the past, we've seen her go through horrific experiences and major grief without murdering thousands of people. Even when she has made mistakes, it was usually in the midst of making strategic decisions that were designed to get her to the next stage of her plan. "Because she was angry" doesn't work, because we've seen her be furious while also demonstrating restraint and realistically assessing the best way forward.

    Inescapably, infuriatingly, what we're left with is apparently the central message of Game of Thrones: *****es are crazy.”

    This is going to be one of those things that people try to justify in the heat of the moment, but as time goes by, most realise how bad it was. It’s called ‘Phantom Menace Syndrome’.

  4. #7069
    Incredible Member stillanerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    I still don't think that's an excuse, D&D are still writers, and there's ENOUGH material to properly finish what they DID have.
    Oh, don't get me wrong, I totally agree. As has been pointed out quite a few times, David Benioff was also one of the co-writers of X-Men Origins: Wolverine, arguably the worst of the X-Men movies. And what's clearly happening is not only how D&D are forcing characters don't a predetermined path, they're doing so as quickly as possible, even though reportedly HBO gave them the opportunity to have them do more episodes in the final season and D&D decided not to.
    --Mike McNulty, a.k.a. Stillanerd. Contributor for Bam Smack Pow! and Viral Hare
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  5. #7070
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    The J-man

    I post via my phone a lot, therefore I make the occasional grammatical error. Not an excuse just forewarning you. Feel free to call me out I won't mind.

  6. #7071
    Incredible Member stillanerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    Also, For anyone trying to justify Dany’s whiplash heel turn, this from THR:

    “In any event, when Dany rested her dragon on a King's Landing wall and realized that she was victorious and the Iron Throne was (probably) hers, what — right then and there — prompted her to decide to burn the city?

    Nothing. Nothing at all.

    There was no proximate cause, no essential reason for the character to take that horrific action at that moment. To say that a character — or a person — has mental illness in their family tree and thus has no control over their actions is astoundingly reductive and plays into harmful and lazy stereotypes. It's also just boring writing to make a character do something stupid and then handwave it away with "Something, something mental illness!"

    That's not only offensive, that's a generality that does nothing to justify that drastic action in that particular moment. All in all, the show has done a piss-poor job of explaining why Daenerys would decide to destroy the very prize she had set her heart on ruling a decade ago. We watched eight seasons of a woman at least attempting to use or think about power differently. Until she didn't. Because … reasons.

    Because she had been burned by personal losses? No, sorry, that won't fly. The deaths she's endured recently have certainly contributed to her current mental state, but in the past, we've seen her go through horrific experiences and major grief without murdering thousands of people. Even when she has made mistakes, it was usually in the midst of making strategic decisions that were designed to get her to the next stage of her plan. "Because she was angry" doesn't work, because we've seen her be furious while also demonstrating restraint and realistically assessing the best way forward.

    Inescapably, infuriatingly, what we're left with is apparently the central message of Game of Thrones: *****es are crazy.”

    This is going to be one of those things that people try to justify in the heat of the moment, but as time goes by, most realise how bad it was. It’s called ‘Phantom Menace Syndrome’.
    All of which is valid criticism. What I would disagree with is that "nothing" promoted Dany burning King's Landing. There's some very crucial lines of dialogue in the very episode that a lot of critics and the audience missed.

    After Varys his executed by dragon fire, and the scene between Jon and Dany, we then go to the throne room in Dragonstone. There, Tyrion tries to plead to Dany one last time not to destroy King's Landing, arguing that the people in that city are just as innocent as the slaves Dany liberated in Meereen. What's Dany's response?

    She points out the people and slaves in Meeren, upon hearing that she and her army were approaching the city, rose up against the Masters. The obvious implication is that, according to Dany, the people of King's Landing are not as innocent as Tyrion says because, unlike what happened in Meeren, they didn't rise up against Cersei when they knew Dany and her armies were approaching. In fact, as far as Dany is concerned, they're just as guilty as Cersei because the people of King's Landing still support Ceresi as their queen. Now don't get me wrong, one exchange of dialogue doesn't completely justify things. But, in hindsight, it's definitely setting things up for Dany to do what she did, showing just how much she's trying to rationalize her decision to destroy King's Landing with twisted logic.
    --Mike McNulty, a.k.a. Stillanerd. Contributor for Bam Smack Pow! and Viral Hare
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  7. #7072
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    You can argue that Daenerys was strategic in her assault on King's Landing up to a point. Taking out the Iron Fleet, destroying the Scorpions on the wall, killing Cersei's armies--those were all smart moves, even if quite destructive. And if she had next gone for the Red Keep, that would make sense as that's the centre of power. But when the bells rang to indicate the surrender of the city, she didn't fly toward the Red Keep, she decided to kill thousands (and maybe millions) of defenseless people in King's Landing, the most powerless of any. And to destroy every building in the city. Also creating so much destruction that it killed many of her own people and prevented her army from being effective. Eventually she took out the Red Keep as she continued to attack and kill everything in sight. But she wasn't following any strategy. She was totally out of control and not using her brains to do anything but point and shoot--she was a mass murderer, intent on spreading death. That's not a sensible person, that's a psychotic monster.
    I read the news today oh boy

  8. #7073
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    You can argue that Daenerys was strategic in her assault on King's Landing up to a point. Taking out the Iron Fleet, destroying the Scorpions on the wall, killing Cersei's armies--those were all smart moves, even if quite destructive. And if she had next gone for the Red Keep, that would make sense as that's the centre of power. But when the bells rang to indicate the surrender of the city, she didn't fly toward the Red Keep, she decided to kill thousands (and maybe millions) of defenseless people in King's Landing, the most powerless of any. And to destroy every building in the city. Also creating so much destruction that it killed many of her own people and prevented her army from being effective. Eventually she took out the Red Keep as she continued to attack and kill everything in sight. But she wasn't following any strategy. She was totally out of control and not using her brains to do anything but point and shoot--she was a mass murderer, intent on spreading death. That's not a sensible person, that's a psychotic monster.
    I hate to go there but, Hiroshima.

  9. #7074
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    I hate to go there but, Hiroshima.
    Dragons were always compared to WMD’s by GRRM for a reason

  10. #7075
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    You can argue that Daenerys was strategic in her assault on King's Landing up to a point. Taking out the Iron Fleet, destroying the Scorpions on the wall, killing Cersei's armies--those were all smart moves, even if quite destructive. And if she had next gone for the Red Keep, that would make sense as that's the centre of power. But when the bells rang to indicate the surrender of the city, she didn't fly toward the Red Keep, she decided to kill thousands (and maybe millions) of defenseless people in King's Landing, the most powerless of any. And to destroy every building in the city. Also creating so much destruction that it killed many of her own people and prevented her army from being effective. Eventually she took out the Red Keep as she continued to attack and kill everything in sight. But she wasn't following any strategy. She was totally out of control and not using her brains to do anything but point and shoot--she was a mass murderer, intent on spreading death. That's not a sensible person, that's a psychotic monster.
    Thats why they call her the mad queen rather than the strategically mean queen.

  11. #7076
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
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    But she was being strategically mean. She's made the decision to go for the stick rather than the carrot. The Queen of Ashes rather than the Breaker of Chains... because the people of King's Landing weren't in chains. To them Cersei was just the tyrant of the month. So Dany decided to go all Cry Havoc on them, thinking it worked with the Wise Masters and the Sons of the Harpy... but they were small groups outnumbered by the oppressed. Now the oppressed are her enemy, and she is their oppressor.

    Would it have made a difference if she could see the faces of the women and children and babies and old men and women she was burning and melting alive? Maybe, but she chose not to see them. Will she feel bad about it after things settle down and she has time to think about it? Maybe, but she has what's left of the city she wanted, and the scorched stones of the Red Keep she thought was hers by right.

    She is alone now. Jorah, Missandei, and Varys are dead. She doesn't trust Jon or Tyrion, and Davos will almost certainly want her dead now. Her only remaining close advisor is Grey Worm, and he's in the same vengeance-hungry place she is. And without good advisors, she is totally and absolutely incompetent.

    Suicide is a very real possibility for her I think, especially if she loses Drogon.

  12. #7077
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    To be fair it should also be pointed out that Aerys also only ever went from an annoying, slightly bipolar guy to an outright deluded madman after he had been kidnapped, tortured and held hostage during the Defiance of Duskendale. After that he never trusted anyone again and started getting worse.

    Plus, y’know, Barristan implies Varys made it worse by constantly whispering schemes in his ear.

  13. #7078
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    But she was being strategically mean. She's made the decision to go for the stick rather than the carrot. The Queen of Ashes rather than the Breaker of Chains... because the people of King's Landing weren't in chains. To them Cersei was just the tyrant of the month. So Dany decided to go all Cry Havoc on them, thinking it worked with the Wise Masters and the Sons of the Harpy... but they were small groups outnumbered by the oppressed. Now the oppressed are her enemy, and she is their oppressor.

    Would it have made a difference if she could see the faces of the women and children and babies and old men and women she was burning and melting alive? Maybe, but she chose not to see them. Will she feel bad about it after things settle down and she has time to think about it? Maybe, but she has what's left of the city she wanted, and the scorched stones of the Red Keep she thought was hers by right.

    She is alone now. Jorah, Missandei, and Varys are dead. She doesn't trust Jon or Tyrion, and Davos will almost certainly want her dead now. Her only remaining close advisor is Grey Worm, and he's in the same vengeance-hungry place she is. And without good advisors, she is totally and absolutely incompetent.

    Suicide is a very real possibility for her I think, especially if she loses Drogon.
    I would have an easier time believing she was being strategically mean if she allowed her own troops to evacuate the city before burning it down, or better yet if left them out entirely and burned the city down herself as she seemingly didn't need them anyways. The fact that she ended up endangering her own forces sort is a big part of what puts this more in the MAD queen area for me.

  14. #7079
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    I hate to go there but, Hiroshima.
    I personally was thinking the firebombing of Dresden & Tokyo

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    Quote Originally Posted by stillanerd View Post
    She points out the people and slaves in Meeren, upon hearing that she and her army were approaching the city, rose up against the Masters. The obvious implication is that, according to Dany, the people of King's Landing are not as innocent as Tyrion says because, unlike what happened in Meeren, they didn't rise up against Cersei when they knew Dany and her armies were approaching. In fact, as far as Dany is concerned, they're just as guilty as Cersei because the people of King's Landing still support Ceresi as their queen. Now don't get me wrong, one exchange of dialogue doesn't completely justify things. But, in hindsight, it's definitely setting things up for Dany to do what she did, showing just how much she's trying to rationalize her decision to destroy King's Landing with twisted logic.
    The issue with this (aside from it still being bad writing) is that they surrendered. If she had been burning King's Landing down before then (and then stopped at the bells) that would be consistent with that statement.

    But instead she only did it AFTER the they surrendered, so this more like if she decided to kill everyone in Mereen because they had waited too long to turn on their masters.

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