Game of Thrones

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Sure she's lost people before. But never to this degree in such short amount of time. At this almost everyone close to her is either "dead" or has betrayed her at this point. Her support system is basically gone. Yeah, Grey Worm is there but he's not in much of a better place than she is.

She was at her weakest emotionally in a time when the usual people who hold her in check can't do it for one reason or another. It was the perfect storm for something like this to happen to her.

In the past 7 episodes she lost two of the 3 Dragons that she’s had since the end of season 1, her closest confidant who she’s had since the first episode, and a friend/mediator who has been with her since the first half of the show.

She spent less time with Drogo than all of these people

[TriggerWarning]

I stand by my gut feeling that there was a vital step left out of the equation that they tried to squeeze in with the line or two about how these people (who weren't slaves) hadn't rebelled against Cersei, so they deserve death, too. That's a hell of a big leap to make for someone out to 'break the wheel' of oppression, and I just feel there should have been something in there that demonstrated that these people spurned her. Right now, all they know is a crazy lady with a dragon burned down the gold/supply train and those who guarded it, burned up the Tarly's, and was threatening to burn down King's Landing. From the perspective of the story in the show, these people were terrified of her and were never given any opportunity to know her, rally to her cause or love her.

That's the gap I wanted to see filled.

But Dany expected them to worship her for no other reason than being a Targaryen. She believed via many statements throughout the series that all of Westeros would love her for being a Targareyn and then when she got there she found that even though those she counted as allies were wary of her if not completely distrustful or even afraid of her.

Dramatically it worked much better without filling the gap as you say. Imagine back in season 3 if throughout the season we'd gotten scenes of Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Roose Bolton meeting, plotting, and scheming. Would the shock of the Red Wedding have been as impactful?

At first glance I did feel the heel turn was rushed but more and more I'm coming around to how the seeds were there the whole time and that it works better the way they did it than if they'd telegraphed it more and drawn it out. Plus if they'd drawn it out we'd all be yelling at Jon for being stupid and trusting her.

[XPac]

But Dany expected them to worship her for other reason than being a Targaryen. She believed via many statements throughout the series that all of Westeros would love her for being a Targareyn and then when she got there she found that even though those she counted as allies were wary of her if not completely distrustful or even afraid of her.

Dramatically it worked much better without filling the gap as you say. Imagine back in season 3 if throughout the season we'd gotten scenes of Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Roose Bolton meeting, plotting, and scheming. Would the shock of the Red Wedding have been as impactful?

At first glance I did feel the heel turn was rushed but more and more I'm coming around to how the seeds were there the whole time and that it works better the way they did it than if they'd telegraphed it more and drawn it out. Plus if they'd drawn it out we'd all be yelling at Jon for being stupid and trusting her.

Yeah, there's a balance you want between foreshadowning something and completely telegraphing it so you can see it coming a mile away and not care. If you're just sitting there waiting for her to snap and go heel on everyone, that takes the fun out of the heel turn. You need enough build up so that it doesn't competely feel out of nowhere, but not to much to the point where it's too obvious to have any impact. It's probably fair to say they didn't quite nail it dead on ... but it's hard to find that exact line.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

To an extent but

spoilers:

He gets to live int hew ild with Ghost and the Wildings, who he likes anyway. He never wanted the throne anyway lol. That ain't bad really. better than hanging around creepy Bran or dealing with Sansa second guessign him every five minutes.

end of spoilers

The problem is that

spoilers:

all the R+L= J stuff, all the he is a targaryan stuff, all the prophesy stuff, how he is the true king... it all means nothing in the end. It served no real plot point other than to make Dany nervous... and even then, all it turned into was Jon saying "i don't want it" over and over and over again. We never even saw his ex-siblings reaction to the news. We barely saw anyones reaction. IT all was worthless. You could throw it all out an dth estory doens't change at all. Instead of a king, Jon coulda just been the bastard that became "more" and then lost it all because he sacrifced it for the better of the realm. And its the exact ame fucking story.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

That's what pisses me off, why should I care about this character now? TLN arc was a waste of fuckin time

end of spoilers

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

Plus if they'd drawn it out we'd all be yelling at Jon for being stupid and trusting her.

People are doing that anyway.

[XPac]

People are doing that anyway.

If she only JUST goes mad, and Jon is able to stop her in the very next episode then I don't think there's a lot of credible criticism you can bring against Jon.

Jon NEEDED Dany's help up to this point against the Night King. And it's not like Jon has any particular love for Cersi, so siding with Dany against her works. As far as Dany is concerned, I think we can only credibly judge him for what he does NOW that he knows she's freaking nuts.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

If she only JUST goes mad, and Jon is able to stop her in the very next episode then I don't think there's a lot of credible criticism you can bring against Jon.

Jon NEEDED Dany's help up to this point against the Night King. And it's not like Jon has any particular love for Cersi, so siding with Dany against her works. As far as Dany is concerned, I think we can only credibly judge him for what he does NOW that he knows she's freaking nuts.

Ok, but what's his excuse AFTER the battle of winterfell? Cant have your cake and eat it too. Cause people are arguing that the bitch went crazy after episode 4 soooooo. Truth of the matter is that Jon is just basically a walking plot device no matter what he ends up doing. He's had so little agency this season it's just doesn't matter what he does. I don't know how you could have fixed it, his arc imo was unofficially over after episode 3. The irony is that after all of this zigzagging plot, his path became predictable anyway. Meh.

[Punisher007]

Arya who doesn't kill innocents? Arya who nearly got herself killed because she refused to assassinate the actress who didn't deserve to be killed. Arya who turned away from her quest from vengeance after some advice from someone she respected as opposed to Daenerys who despite the advice of everyone went on a killing rampage of innocent?

Yet that Arya.

The Arya who kills a man's kids, bakes them into a pie, and then feeds them to him, before smiling as she slits his throat and watches him die. The Arya who poisons and entire house, watches them die, and then walks away with a look of satisfaction on her face. The Arya who threatens to kill her own sister, etc.

So if we go "well Dany has been brutal and ruthless at times, and all of her equal if not more acts of mercy and kindness don't matter, she's just crazy," then the same can be said of Arya.

But Arya is the showrunners pet character, so of course it "doesn't count" for her.

[Punisher007]

But Dany expected them to worship her for other reason than being a Targaryen. She believed via many statements throughout the series that all of Westeros would love her for being a Targareyn and then when she got there she found that even though those she counted as allies were wary of her if not completely distrustful or even afraid of her.

Dramatically it worked much better without filling the gap as you say. Imagine back in season 3 if throughout the season we'd gotten scenes of Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, and Roose Bolton meeting, plotting, and scheming. Would the shock of the Red Wedding have been as impactful?

At first glance I did feel the heel turn was rushed but more and more I'm coming around to how the seeds were there the whole time and that it works better the way they did it than if they'd telegraphed it more and drawn it out. Plus if they'd drawn it out we'd all be yelling at Jon for being stupid and trusting her.

No it did not. It was just lazy. And the fact that even longtime fans of the show have turned on this episode just shows that. "Shock value" for its own sake isn't a good thing. It doesn't help that we DID see the choices that Robb and Catelyn made that led up to the Red Wedding, so it was still better build-up to than Dany suddenly going completely crazy.

[Jabare]

Jon hasn't done anything all season but kiss his aunt

[Jabare]

lets all relax to Grey Worms new song

[TriggerWarning]

The Arya who kills a man's kids, bakes them into a pie, and then feeds them to him, before smiling as she slits his throat and watches him die. The Arya who poisons and entire house, watches them die, and then walks away with a look of satisfaction on her face. The Arya who threatens to kill her own sister, etc.

So if we go "well Dany has been brutal and ruthless at times, and all of her equal if not more acts of mercy and kindness don't matter, she's just crazy," then the same can be said of Arya.

But Arya is the showrunners pet character, so of course it "doesn't count" for her.

The kids who helped kill her mother, brother, and all their men? And calling them kids is a misnomer as they were full grown men who assisted in the murders of the Starks. Thats justice not murder which is what Daenerys did when she torched Kings Landing.

[TriggerWarning]

No it did not. It was just lazy. And the fact that even longtime fans of the show have turned on this episode just shows that. "Shock value" for its own sake isn't a good thing. It doesn't help that we DID see the choices that Robb and Catelyn made that led up to the Red Wedding, so it was still better build-up to than Dany suddenly going completely crazy.

Robb and Catelyn were the good guys who made the mistake of trusting the bad guys. The valid comparison is Dany to Tywin, Walder, and Roose.

[XPac]

Ok, but what's his excuse AFTER the battle of winterfell? Cant have your cake and eat it too. Cause people are arguing that the bitch went crazy after episode 4 soooooo. Truth of the matter is that Jon is just basically a walking plot device no matter what he ends up doing. He's had so little agency this season it's just doesn't matter what he does. I don't know how you could have fixed it, his arc imo was unofficially over after episode 3. The irony is that after all of this zigzagging plot, his path became predictable anyway. Meh.

Right now what he does definately matters, because he might be the only person capable of either reasoning with Dany, or getting close enough to her to put her down if she can't be reasoned with. Arya might be able to do it too DISGUISED as Jon... but I'm not sure she's getting both the Night King AND Dany.

[TriggerWarning]

So most of my predictions before the season were off so now I'm doubling down with a new set of predictions.

Dany dies though I'm not sure if its Jon or Arya who does it. The turning point is when Dany decides to go after Winterfell and Sansa for not bending the knee. Either way Jon then goes into self imposed exile to the north to live with the Wildlings. This was heavily foreshadowed in his last conversation with with Tormund.

Tyrion and Sansa remarry (were they ever really divorced?) and rule together for political reasons.