Game of Thrones

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

I don't read the books, I mostly read the wikis. But I hink this was bound to happen regardless of whether D&D had the last two books or not. Rewatching the earlier seasons has made it clear they never understood the books or even liked some of the characters. They were playing favorites from day one, and even when they had material to adapt they'd ignore it if it didn't suit the narrative they wanted. It's why Cersei has always been Carol the Soccer Mom, Jaime got shafted after season 3, Tyrion was white washed, Jon became a moron (even as early as season 2), Robb broke his vow for love not honor...

There was plenty of material (almost 2000 pages worth) they could've adapted for season 5, but they weren't interested in very much of it. Key plotlines like Dorne, the Ironborn and Stannis' war for the North were all altered significantly, and fAegon was excised entirely. All of them will feature heavily in Winds of Winter, and whatever is planned for Dream will be the fallout of those narratives. Given that these storylines don't exist in the show, there was always going to be a need for original material.

The later seasons may have benefited from a clear roadmap of how Martin was going to handle everything, but I'm not convinced it would've made much difference. The cast of Game of Thrones in season 8 would not behave the same as their book counterparts, and so many little things have been changed that they're effectively different characters. There would've been no way to map the storylines of Winds & Dream onto GoT by that point. Benioff and Weiss were only ever interested in the core cast they retained over the years, and the outline Martin provided them was all they really needed. The ending still would've been rushed because D&D wanted out, not because they didn't have the books.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

Firstly, Tyrion doesn't "let" Dany do anything. He can give advice, and she can either take it or not. Ultimately the ball is still in her court.

But yes, Tyrion did try and give them the opportunity to surrender to avoid any unecessary deaths or conflicts. You can argue that tactically that is a mistake, but clearly that's sort of the advisors that Dany needs. She needs to be reigned in by people like Tyrion and Varys. Their concerns over Dany ended up being justified. Dany from a purely military standpoint was correct... but I think Tyrion was more looking at the long game. The fight itself never really concerned him, since he never had any doubts that Dany could win even after her forces were decidmated fighting the Night King. The outcome of the actual battle was never in doubt, so that was never a priority to him.

But that's where Tyrion fails, Cersei was never going to surrender. He was stuck with a Morton's Fork, either take Cersei out, or risk a grisly sacking of the city.

[XPac]

But that's where Tyrion fails, Cersei was never going to surrender. He was stuck with a Morton's Fork, either take Cersei out, or risk a grisly sacking of the city.

I agree Cersi was never going to surrender. And deep down I'll wager Tyrion himself believed it was a long shot. But given how many lives were at stake, he was willing to go so far as to risk his own life to at least TRY and prevent the massacre he believed or at least feared would occur. That's the sort of stupidity I can actually respect. He wasn't right, but he was trying to do the right thing.

And that's why I think Tyrion and Varys were the right people to at least TRY and guide Dany. They needed to try and reign her in. Problem being at this point in the story, she hit her breaking point and that simply wasn't possible.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I don't read the books, I mostly read the wikis. But I hink this was bound to happen regardless of whether D&D had the last two books or not. Rewatching the earlier seasons has made it clear they never understood the books or even liked some of the characters. They were playing favorites from day one, and even when they had material to adapt they'd ignore it if it didn't suit the narrative they wanted. It's why Cersei has always been Carol the Soccer Mom, Jaime got shafted after season 3, Tyrion was white washed, Jon became a moron (even as early as season 2), Robb broke his vow for love not honor...

There was plenty of material (almost 2000 pages worth) they could've adapted for season 5, but they weren't interested in very much of it. Key plotlines like Dorne, the Ironborn and Stannis' war for the North were all altered significantly, and fAegon was excised entirely. All of them will feature heavily in Winds of Winter, and whatever is planned for Dream will be the fallout of those narratives. Given that these storylines don't exist in the show, there was always going to be a need for original material.

The later seasons may have benefited from a clear roadmap of how Martin was going to handle everything, but I'm not convinced it would've made much difference. The cast of Game of Thrones in season 8 would not behave the same as their book counterparts, and so many little things have been changed that they're effectively different characters. There would've been no way to map the storylines of Winds & Dream onto GoT by that point. Benioff and Weiss were only ever interested in the core cast they retained over the years, and the outline Martin provided them was all they really needed. The ending still would've been rushed because D&D wanted out, not because they didn't have the books.

The Robb thing was explained by GRRM once. Basically the show runners needed to pay Madden for the whole season so they could retain his contract. Book 2 has a lot of Robb Stark's exploits off page, and they didn't want to just have people hearing about everything he was doing while paying one of their leading actors to not be there most of the season. And in fairness, GRRM has stated he regrets not having Robb as a POV. Because of that they needed him betraying the Freys to be part of that and wanted it to be a more active decision that the audience would resonate with more.

Cersei I really don't mind, she was always one of the more compelling characters in the books, Jamie sadly really has most of his material in Storm of Swords and some stuff in Feast but I get it.

Stannis is too hard to say. If Ramsay's pink letter is accurate, then Stannis did in fact just get crushed by Ramsay as he did in the show and there are some small details.

Dorne and F/Aegon are heading to the exact same destination so if you remove one you have to alter the other.

The reality is that the books that Season 5 kind of adapted, are not nearly as popular as the first 3 and Martin let the plot get away from him with those books and has been struggling ever since. They've could have adapted them more faithfully but you likely would have had two full seasons where nearly every main character didn't accomplish much. Jon, Dany, and Tyrion's storylines would have either needed to be put on hold or extended for two seasons (where they didn't do a whole lot in season 5 already).

The reality is that midway through the show they weren't going to add 4 or 5 B plots that were disconnected from the main story and already established content. And who knows where they were going. It wouldn't be the first time Martin had a few plotlines literally be red herrings that just get cut off cold. Even in the books the whole Dorne storyline is pointless minus one speech from the Prince at the end.

[XPac]

The Robb thing was explained by GRRM once. Basically the show runners needed to pay Madden for the whole season so they could retain his contract. Book 2 has a lot of Robb Stark's exploits off page, and they didn't want to just have people hearing about everything he was doing while paying one of their leading actors to not be there most of the season. And in fairness, GRRM has stated he regrets not having Robb as a POV. Because of that they needed him betraying the Freys to be part of that and wanted it to be a more active decision that the audience would resonate with more.

Cersei I really don't mind, she was always one of the more compelling characters in the books, Jamie sadly really has most of his material in Storm of Swords and some stuff in Feast but I get it.

Stannis is too hard to say. If Ramsay's pink letter is accurate, then Stannis did in fact just get crushed by Ramsay as he did in the show and there are some small details.

Dorne and F/Aegon are heading to the exact same destination so if you remove one you have to alter the other.

The reality is that the books that Season 5 kind of adapted, are not nearly as popular as the first 3 and Martin let the plot get away from him with those books and has been struggling ever since. They've could have adapted them more faithfully but you likely would have had two full seasons where nearly every main character didn't accomplish much. Jon, Dany, and Tyrion's storylines would have either needed to be put on hold or extended for two seasons (where they didn't do a whole lot in season 5 already).

The reality is that midway through the show they weren't going to add 4 or 5 B plots that were disconnected from the main story and already established content. And who knows where they were going. It wouldn't be the first time Martin had a few plotlines literally be red herrings that just get cut off cold. Even in the books the whole Dorne storyline is pointless minus one speech from the Prince at the end.

Honestly, I almost think it's fair to say the problem wasn't that the show had too few plotlines but rather that Martin had too many. Hardcore book fans may disagree with me on this, but I almost think he'd be better off streamlining his stuff a bit like the show has (though the show coversely probably streamlined too much as the end drew near).

[Master Planner]

I don't read the books, I mostly read the wikis. But I hink this was bound to happen regardless of whether D&D had the last two books or not. Rewatching the earlier seasons has made it clear they never understood the books or even liked some of the characters. They were playing favorites from day one, and even when they had material to adapt they'd ignore it if it didn't suit the narrative they wanted. It's why Cersei has always been Carol the Soccer Mom, Jaime got shafted after season 3, Tyrion was white washed, Jon became a moron (even as early as season 2), Robb broke his vow for love not honor...

There was plenty of material (almost 2000 pages worth) they could've adapted for season 5, but they weren't interested in very much of it. Key plotlines like Dorne, the Ironborn and Stannis' war for the North were all altered significantly, and fAegon was excised entirely. All of them will feature heavily in Winds of Winter, and whatever is planned for Dream will be the fallout of those narratives. Given that these storylines don't exist in the show, there was always going to be a need for original material.

The later seasons may have benefited from a clear roadmap of how Martin was going to handle everything, but I'm not convinced it would've made much difference. The cast of Game of Thrones in season 8 would not behave the same as their book counterparts, and so many little things have been changed that they're effectively different characters. There would've been no way to map the storylines of Winds & Dream onto GoT by that point. Benioff and Weiss were only ever interested in the core cast they retained over the years, and the outline Martin provided them was all they really needed. The ending still would've been rushed because D&D wanted out, not because they didn't have the books.

My thoughts are that D&D loved some of the characters but they were more interested in doing things until Red Wedding, after that they weren't so thrilled about the whole saga. Especially now that they are much famous and ready to do Star Wars, GoT is a dead weight for them. Also, if we went to do the whole Feast for Crows and Dance of Dragons, you would need new introduction of characters(more fees),an existing cast that wants to do other things and not strictly focus on one show etc.

It's funny. Martin's whole reason of creating A Song of Fire And Ice was to use ideas that TV or live action movies couldn't make a reality. Considering the difficulties that the show had even from season 2, it proves that the whole saga is quite difficult to be adapted properly. I feel that, if they want to retry in the future, they should use animation format.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

I agree Cersi was never going to surrender. And deep down I'll wager Tyrion himself believed it was a long shot. But given how many lives were at stake, he was willing to go so far as to risk his own life to at least TRY and prevent the massacre he believed or at least feared would occur. That's the sort of stupidity I can actually respect. He wasn't right, but he was trying to do the right thing.

And that's why I think Tyrion and Varys were the right people to at least TRY and guide Dany. They needed to try and reign her in. Problem being at this point in the story, she hit her breaking point and that simply wasn't possible.

Imo his main priority was Cersei not the citizens. The citizens are just plausible deniability for him.

[XPac]

Imo his main priority was Cersei not the citizens. The citizens are just plausible deniability for him.

Yes and no. Because Cersi is pregnent I do think Cersi making it out alive of KL with her unborn child was important enough for him to risk his own life. Though I honestly believe if she weren't he wouldn't have made as much of an effort to save her if not for Jamie.

That said, you can tell he was effected when he was walking through the dead bodies, even early on when those bodies were soldiers rather than innocnet civilians. Tyrion cared.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

Something else someone brought up on reddit.
A lot has been said about the show's treatment of characters such as Tyrion, Jon, Jaime or Dany. But one character assassination that doesn't get the attention it deserves is Samwell Tarly.

So his story starts with his father sending him to the Wall, because according to him Sam is not worthy of being his heir.

Whatever pride his lord father might have felt at Samwell's birth vanished as the boy grew up plump, soft, and awkward. Sam loved to listen to music and make his own songs, to wear soft velvets, to play in the castle kitchen beside the cooks, drinking in the rich smells as he snitched lemon cakes and blueberry tarts. His passions were books and kittens and dancing, clumsy as he was. But he grew ill at the sight of blood, and wept to see even a chicken slaughtered. A dozen masters-at-arms came and went at Horn Hill, trying to turn Samwell into the knight his father wanted. The boy was cursed and caned, slapped and starved.

Randyll Tarly is obviously a narrow-minded idiot. One doesn't need to be a warrior to be a worthy man. Even the place as hard and hostile as the Wall needs men like Sam. Jon realizes is right away:

"The Night's Watch needs all sorts too. Why else have rangers and stewards and builders? Lord Randyll couldn't make Sam a warrior, and Ser Alliser won't either. You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean tin is useless. Why shouldn't Sam be a steward?"

In ASOS Sam does end up killing a White Walker, but GRRM is very careful to make sure it doesn't compromise his character arc and doesn't take away from the message he's trying to get across. Slaying an Other doesn't solve Sam's issues. In fact it's mostly dumb luck. And Sam's actual crowning moment of ASOS is him plotting to make Jon the lord commander.

Now let's look at how the show deals with Sam's character in the later seasons:

Killing a White Walker and a Thenn becomes a major point of pride for Sam. In the show, it actually solves all of his issues
Sam plotting to make Jon lord commander is dropped
Moments showing Sam's growth mostly revolve around violence. Him bravely fighting at Castle Black, him saving Gilly from rape...
Meanwhile, Sam being smart and loving the books plays no part in the story. Were you hoping that Sam being sent off to Oldtown will result in him digging up some crucial information about the Others? Nope, it's all about R+L=J. And even if we assume that it's a worthy pay off (it's not), it's Gilly who finds it, not Sam! Well, maybe the books he stole will play a part? Nope, nothing at all!

So Sam's intelligence and a thirst for knowledge aren't important in the slightest. And him being a peaceful, non violent person is turned onto it's head. Now we have a guy who takes major pride in murder. According to the show, Randyll was right. The only way for Sam to become a man was to start kicking ass. And his books are completely useless. Great message here, game of thrones.

But they even managed to botch this mess of a narrative, because in the battle of Winterfell Sam is once again reduced to scared boy. And with one episode to go, he probably won't get more development beyond that. So what is his story about exactly? What are we meant to take away from it?

And the last thing i wanted to bring up is Gilly. Remember how "love is the death of duty" was a major theme? Remember how it was key for characters such as Robb, Ned, Jon? Well, **** that. Sam can have a girlfriend at Castle Black. He can have a girfriend at the Citadel. He can abandon his oath completely and have a child with her. There are no consequences. Nobody even cares.

Some people point out that Sam fidning out about dragonglass in Oldtown is an important plot point, and is something he learns from the books. But the problem is that Stannis directly told him this back in season 5. So it's more of Sam being an idiot and forgetting this incredibly important information than him being smart and finding it out.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

Imo his main priority was Cersei not the citizens. The citizens are just plausible deniability for him.

That's been my opinion since season 7

Yes and no. Because Cersi is pregnent I do think Cersi making it out alive of KL with her unborn child was important enough for him to risk his own life. Though I honestly believe if she weren't he wouldn't have made as much of an effort to save her if not for Jamie.

That said, you can tell he was effected when he was walking through the dead bodies, even early on when those bodies were soldiers rather than innocnet civilians. Tyrion cared.

Tyrion cared when it was convenient. It's also weird given the bitter speech he gave back in season 4 or whenever.

[your_name_here]

I agree Tyrion should care far, far less than he has been the last 2 seasons. Especially after his speech in Season 4.

But then there’s a decent amount of characters that should/would have acted differently to how they were portrayed in these last 2 seasons.
I can count the satisfying, logical characters arc on one hand at the minute.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

The way you have to view Tyrion is that he was a completely broken man at the end of season 4. The city he helped save was rooting for his death. His father never accepted him and this was his big chance to execute him. He is basically labled a kingslayer and kinslayer which makes him an outcast. The girl he loved completely betrayed him and left him for dead.

He was a mess when he escaped in Essos. And Dany was what gave him purpose and inspiration again. He wanted to make a better world with her. So he doesn't want her to be just another tyrant/conquerer

[Divine Spark]

And here. We. Go!

[jackolover]

Just watched this weeks episode.

Wow.

So in the end, Daenerys is a crazy, mass-murdering bitch-monster who butchers more innocent people, including children, in one hour than Cersei Lannister has done in her entire career.

What a fucking joke.

Now it's just a race to see who gets to put the pyscho down. I'm hoping it's Arya. She still has the "evil queen" box to cross off her kill list.

Myself, having only watched a few glimpses of GoT over the 8 seasons I had to ask an aficionado if she thought Daenerys played out of character, and she said, “Uh uh. Daenerys had family history regarding her brother and her family”.

This ties in with my feelings on Daenerys, although she looks a very pleasant person from my viewing of her, she inherits the “How to tame your dragon” shamaness tradition, and you think, ‘that is a disturbing gift to inherit’. So, I consider that no matter how well your demeanour in life may be, you can’t escape the result of horror, no matter how much you suppress it by showing a nice face towards life. One day, all the injustice that you have been suppressing, will out, and it is here that I think Daenerys, in the penultimate episode, was moved to unleash all her pent-up revenge.

I put it this way. Daenerys portrays a basic human propensity that no matter what we do to be good, humanity is such that it will always do what Daenerys did, no matter how pretty she looks. You are governed by your history, and if history has dealt you painfully, you will deal with society painfully in return. I’m not surprised by Daenerys actions. GoT is a horror of a landscape. The prettiest people could not but return bloodbath in that environment.

[SiegePerilous02]

The zombie hunt wasn't just necessary to convince Cersi though ... it was necessary to convince Dany. Had she not seen the Walkers for her own eyes, she might not have sent her armies to the north to face them. Up to this point, it was only Jons word that any of that was real. To anyone that knows Jon that's usually enough... but she didn't yet.

It also lead to the zombies getting a dragon and busting down the wall, which they wouldn't be able to do nearly as quickly or maybe at all without the dragon. If she was willing to fly out there to save their dumb asses, couldn't Jon have convinced her to do a quick recon to see the corpse army to convince her?

Anyway will be streaming this soon once everyone for our last viewing party is here. At this point I just want it to be over and hope it's a glorious enough train wreck to be entertaining. Watching the shows reputation going down in flames is more entertaining than the show itself at this point.