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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7741
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogwen View Post
    Exactly that. There's no entitlement in GOT and Jon more than did his par!t He even came back to life to make sure Westeros was protected. But looks like it wasn't enough for some fans, they feel robbed of their "end" and they think that it's fair sport to attack the show the way they do.
    That is the main problem right there. People didn't get "their" ending and since they didn't then the whole show is just garbage now. I will agree with anyone who complains about the pacing since it was so rushed, but the story beats were all there long before this last season. To some people if Dani didn't win the thrown and get treated as the goddess of Westeros then it was always going to piss them. Same with the Jon should have the thrown crowd.

    People seem to always gloss over the fact that the Targaryn line was deposed and the people were happy with Roberts rule for over a decade so any return of the Targaryns would be seen by the common folk of Westeros as a terrible thing. They didn't want Targaryns back on the throne after seeing how the last king was. That was one of the main factors in Dani's fall was she thought the people would all bow down and worship her like the slaves did overseas when really most were happy her family was gone.

  2. #7742
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    No it's not the fan's job to accept anything that the writers throw at them. when some defenders talk about "entitlement" it just a strawman argument nothing more. If many fans didn't like it, it's not because they feel "entitled" or "don't get it." It's because the writer's didn't do their jobs properly.

    And given all of the complaints about the writing, the idea that the "story beats were their long before" is NOT a cut and dry thing. A LOT of people, even people who've defended/praised the show before, do not agree with that, and no it's not them "missing something," it's the writing failing to make it clear.

  3. #7743
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    If many viewers saw it coming it was setup properly.

    Even if others didnít, you canít say it wasnít there. You did watch a whole 7 seasons where this particular character had been threatening to do exactly that many times. Not just once in passing. It was there for you. Just like all her killings and brutality even when it wasnít necessary or merited. You can choose to ignore it or justify it, but it was there.

    Even your slavery Bay comment..... literally the very last season she was there in one of the last episodes she had to be talked down from burning everything by Tyrion. The next season she was executing prisoners who didnít kneel and had to be talked down from burning Kingís Landing. So if Slavers Bay was teaching moment for her, it completely failed.

    The desire was always part of her, the brutality was always there. It was set up. Fans saw it. A lot of the fans who didnít see it have to ignore her own stated intentions and justify her cruelty over the course of the show.
    Again, there is a world of difference between everything you ve just said and burning children to death.

    If you canít see that millions of viewers see a clear disconnect between using lethal force against people whoíve committed murder and innocent 5 year old girls, we simply have no common frame of reference. Youíre trying to convince me that Judge Dredd and the Joker are the same person.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    ďThe very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.Ē - the 4th Doctor

  4. #7744
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    What they needed was a group to sneak into the Red Keep, grab Cersei, and fight past the defenders like Gregor to bring her out and face justice.

    A small band of brave adventurers who might succeed where whole armied would fail.

    Thatís what REAL D&D would have done.
    Last edited by brettc1; 05-22-2019 at 12:05 AM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    ďThe very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.Ē - the 4th Doctor

  5. #7745
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    They did.

    1. Jon was one of the first to discover the White Walker threat in the NW.
    2. Jon aided and allowed the Wildlings to live at Castle Black to save them.
    3. Jonís friend showed him dragonglass can kill White Walkers
    4. Jon discovered Valyrian Steel could
    5. Jon took back Winterfell and united the North to prepare to defend the real from the White Walkers
    6. Jon went to Dragonstone and mined dragonglass to use as weapons.
    7. Jon recruited Dany to the cause which brought over the bulk of the army
    8. Jon and his team prepared all the mechanisms and defenses so Winterfell wouldnít get thrashed in seconds
    9. Jon knocker the Night King from his dragon making him more vulnerable

    Without Jon they 100% donít win. Literally any soldier could have gotten the jump on the Night King under the right circumstances. It happened to be the best assassin in the story. Without Jon the there is no battle at Winterfell. The dead roll through the North. Without Jon nobody is armed properly and they all die immediately because they canít kill anyone. Without Jon the Night King stays on a dragon and just burns Bran and then never exposes himself again. Without Jon there is no Winterfell for Arya to go back to.

    It was one of Jonís soldiers, in Jonís war, who didnít immediately get swarmed by eights because of Jonís prep, who knew how to be properly armed because of Jon, who got a chance to strike down a character Jon knocked to the ground, that killed the Night King

    But I guess it doesnít matter because we didnít get a cheesy sword fight that made no sense because Jon should lose it and only a properly trained super assassin should even have a chance at
    A cheesy sword fight between two characters (essentially the only 2 GOOD and EVIL in the whole show, one of which has a ridiculous amount of fantasy-chosen-one secrets being revealed) who have been staring eachother down ever since they met, constantly teasing a battle is EXACTLY what we needed. Maybe not even a fight, but some sort of ackowledgement that THIS is what Jon is destined for.
    Just because itís the obvious choice doesnít make it the bad way to go. As you head into the finale of anything, itís the time where everything you have teased or built up towards finally happens...and the only I could think of was Jon and the Night King.

  6. #7746
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think you do sort of get that in the show too... it's just overshadowed at times by how cool she is.

    I suppose to some degree you almost can't fault her for having a messiah complex given up to a point everywhere she went ended up with her being treated as both a savior and queen. It's when she goes up North where you begin to see that she doesn't quite cope well with situations that don't quite go the way she wants them to.
    Oh itís totally in both. Just in the books you get her thinking a lot of stupid shit

  7. #7747
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    A cheesy sword fight between two characters (essentially the only 2 GOOD and EVIL in the whole show, one of which has a ridiculous amount of fantasy-chosen-one secrets being revealed) who have been staring eachother down ever since they met, constantly teasing a battle is EXACTLY what we needed. Maybe not even a fight, but some sort of ackowledgement that THIS is what Jon is destined for.
    Just because it’s the obvious choice doesn’t make it the bad way to go. As you head into the finale of anything, it’s the time where everything you have teased or built up towards finally happens...and the only I could think of was Jon and the Night King.
    I honestly wanted the fight scene too, despite the fact that I also agree it might be predictable and even cheesy. I would have marked for it.

    That said, I get why they went the direction they did. Arya wasn't going to kill Cersi like many speculated, and Jon was set on taking out Dany. So giving Arya the big moment with the Night King sort of works as far as spreading out the big moments a little bit.

  8. #7748
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    I would have actually quite liked Jaime to have killed the Night King - dying himself while doing so.
    Have some poetic justice that being called the “king slayer” wasn’t a tarnish on his name at all.

  9. #7749
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    No it's not the fan's job to accept anything that the writers throw at them. when some defenders talk about "entitlement" it just a strawman argument nothing more. If many fans didn't like it, it's not because they feel "entitled" or "don't get it." It's because the writer's didn't do their jobs properly.

    And given all of the complaints about the writing, the idea that the "story beats were their long before" is NOT a cut and dry thing. A LOT of people, even people who've defended/praised the show before, do not agree with that, and no it's not them "missing something," it's the writing failing to make it clear.
    I think once we start seeing petitions asking HBO redo season 8 we start getting a bit into the entitlement arena.

    Fans don't get to decide what happens on the show... they just get to decide whether or not they wanna watch it. And plenty did despite the complaints, so they must have been doing something right.

  10. #7750
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Again, there is a world of difference between everything you ve just said and burning children to death.

    If you can’t see that millions of viewers see a clear disconnect between using lethal force against people who’ve committed murder and innocent 5 year old girls, we simply have no common frame of reference. You’re trying to convince me that Judge Dredd and the Joker are the same person.
    She said said constantly that she wanted to burn cities. There is no way you get around that it also implies burning children in those cities

  11. #7751
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    What they needed was a group to sneak into the Rec Keep, grab Cersei, and fight past the defenders like Gregor to bring her out and face justice.

    A mill band of brave adventurers who might succeed where who,e arnmies would fail.

    That’s what REAL D&D would have done.
    This is actually what I was expecting since (supposedly) the army of the North was massively depleted after the fight with the Night King.

    Tyrion and Varys know the sneaky way in which, judging by how empty it was when Jaime and Cersei ran through it, was not guarded. One small force could have made their way into the keep and be done with it

  12. #7752
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    She said said constantly that she wanted to burn cities. There is no way you get around that it also implies burning children in those cities
    And though she said it, up until the penultimate episode of a ten year/eight season show, she never actually did it.

  13. #7753
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    No it's not the fan's job to accept anything that the writers throw at them. when some defenders talk about "entitlement" it just a strawman argument nothing more. If many fans didn't like it, it's not because they feel "entitled" or "don't get it." It's because the writer's didn't do their jobs properly.

    And given all of the complaints about the writing, the idea that the "story beats were their long before" is NOT a cut and dry thing. A LOT of people, even people who've defended/praised the show before, do not agree with that, and no it's not them "missing something," it's the writing failing to make it clear.
    There is a stupid petition that a lot of people have signed. So I'm not sure your point has particularly good ground to stand on.

    I think the ending is fine and where the characters got to is pretty much spot on. People expect GRRM to fix the pacing and here's what I will say to that: he will 100% not rush the pacing. In all likelihood because he never gets there.

    His pacing is the opposite problem and people, in the end, may find his build-up too slow that the beats he wanted to create get buried in overgrowth. He's sent so many characters meandering around his world who knows if what they're doing even matters anymore.

  14. #7754
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    No it's not the fan's job to accept anything that the writers throw at them. when some defenders talk about "entitlement" it just a strawman argument nothing more. If many fans didn't like it, it's not because they feel "entitled" or "don't get it." It's because the writer's didn't do their jobs properly.

    And given all of the complaints about the writing, the idea that the "story beats were their long before" is NOT a cut and dry thing. A LOT of people, even people who've defended/praised the show before, do not agree with that, and no it's not them "missing something," it's the writing failing to make it clear.

    There’s a difference between subjectively saying you didn’t like something out of personal preference and trying to validate your dislike of something by calling it bad writing. You are entitled to not like something. You aren’t entitled to have the story told the way you want or else it’s bad writing.

    The fact that so many people saw it coming should kind of tell you there was something to it. Lots of people didn’t see the Red Wedding coming. Some did. The clues were there. The clues were here too. It’s very hard to get around the fact that a character who constantly expressed a desire to do something actually going through with it and then saying it’s poor writing

  15. #7755
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    And though she said it, up until the penultimate episode of a ten year/eight season show, she never actually did it.

    Because other people talked her down or outright stopped her. Once she was in a position where her advisors weren’t able to break through, she says exactly what she threatened. That’s not bad writing

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