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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7786
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    No Cersei committing mass murder makes sense from a story perspective because of the narrative that came before. Dany doing so doesn't make sense because of the narrative that came before. Dany was never mad before. Her threats were in fact based on logic.

    The people turned against Cersei when they rang the bells and surrendered. Dany could quite literally have told them to go in the Red Keep and drag Cersei out by the hair and they would have.

    The writing is what is flawed to me. This is where you and I differ. You keep trying to make it about the characters but no the issue for me is the writing. I have no problem with Dany going mad. I have a problem with the way the writers executed it.
    Dany not being mad before is why she didn't necessarily commit mass murder before (though you can also potentially credit that to her advisors helping to keep her in check). That's sort of the point. If people she loved were murdered and almost all her close confidents betrayed her in a short span of time in the past, it's possible she might have snapped then to and did the same thing.

    Her going nuts didn't occur in a void. She experienced great loss to the point where she was isolating herself, not eating and probably not getting a whole lot of sleep by the look of her. Not that her time prior to this was necessarily a picnic, but she hasn't been put through the emotional ringer to THIS degree prior to the last season. And it took a toll on her physically and emotionally.

    ANd people didn't turn against Cersi when they rang the bells ... they simply were more afraid of Dany than Cersi at that point. Again, they didn't want to be saved from Cersi... they wanted to be saved from Dany. Big difference from Danys perspective.

  2. #7787
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Dany not being mad before is why she didn't necessarily commit mass murder before (though you can also potentially credit that to her advisors helping to keep her in check). That's sort of the point. If people she loved were murdered and almost all her close confidents betrayed her in a short span of time in the past, it's possible she might have snapped then to and did the same thing.

    Her going nuts didn't occur in a void. She experienced great loss to the point where she was isolating herself, not eating and probably not getting a whole lot of sleep by the look of her. Not that her time prior to this was necessarily a picnic, but she hasn't been put through the emotional ringer to THIS degree prior to the last season. And it took a toll on her physically and emotionally.

    ANd people didn't turn against Cersi when they rang the bells ... they simply were more afraid of Dany than Cersi at that point. Again, they didn't want to be saved from Cersi... they wanted to be saved from Dany. Big difference from Danys perspective.
    Yeah and the issue is the person responsible for her loss was right there in front of her and she instead decides to burn innocent children. Like again shitty writing. Madness isn't really all that random. If one goes Mad and the object of their rage and hatred is staring them right in the face, they don't just blindly go and massacre other people. Generally other people are hurt by Mad people when the object of their rage and hatred isn't there to be punished.

    And no, the people turned against Cersei. They surrendered and everyone knew that doing so meant Cersei would be killed. So they were quite content with Cersei being killed or executed as that was obviously the only outcome of their surrender for Cersei. Or do you think they thought Dany would give Cersei cookies and ice cream?
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  3. #7788
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Nope. Varys betrayal was because he felt Jon would be a better ruler. Sure he had concerns about Dany but never to this level and those concerns likely go nowhere without him knowing about Jon's heritage.
    I think it's a combination of both.

    The reason he felt Jon was a better choice as ruler is because he clearly started disillusioned with Dany because in his eyes she was becoming more increasingly volatile. He CLEARLY feared what Dany would do in KL... and unfortunately his worst fears became true. So the two things sort of go hand in hand.

  4. #7789
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    While needing more development I thought the turn to mad queen started last season when she started burning soldiers who only crime was not bending the knee.

  5. #7790
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Yeah and the issue is the person responsible for her loss was right there in front of her and she instead decides to burn innocent children. Like again shitty writing. Madness isn't really all that random. If one goes Mad and the object of their rage and hatred is staring them right in the face, they don't just blindly go and massacre other people. Generally other people are hurt by Mad people when the object of their rage and hatred isn't there to be punished.

    And no, the people turned against Cersei. They surrendered and everyone knew that doing so meant Cersei would be killed. So they were quite content with Cersei being killed or executed as that was obviously the only outcome of their surrender for Cersei. Or do you think they thought Dany would give Cersei cookies and ice cream?
    Again, they didn't turn on Cersi. They simply didn't want Dany's forces to kill them. At that moment no, they didn't care what happened to Cersi... they just didn't want to die. She didn't win over the people like she wanted... she just got the people of KL to fear her more than Cersi. The problem with Dany is that wasn't enough. That's one of the differences between Cersi and Dany. All Cersi cares about is power... she could care less what people thought about her. But Dany's messiah complex meant she required people to love her, and when she realized that wasn't possible the people of KL simply stopped mattering.

  6. #7791
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Let's just recap a few of the stupid things that happened this season.

    1. The Dothraki stupidly charge in the dark against an enemy of unknown number.
    2. The main characters were swarmed by undead only to be saved by ridiculous plot armor.
    3. The Night King and his White Walkers die without them even clashing swords with anyone.
    4. The Dothraki and Unsullied who were decimated during the fight suddenly respawn.
    5. Euron magically hit a moving target in the air 3 times in quick succession.
    6. Euron magically failed to hit Drogon about 1,000 scorpion shots after 5 above.
    7. Instead of Dany simply flying behind the ships and burning them to shreds, she inexplicably charges straight ahead and then bails on her people.
    8. Instead of killing all the Unsullied that had to abandon ship, Euron only captures a single person Missandei leaving an entire army of Unsullied to swim ashore and live to fight another day.
    9. Despite being braindead in 7, Dany figures out how to sneak up behind the enemy and torch the Golden Company.
    10. Despite the benefit of a huge city, Cersei stations the GC outside of the walls.
    11. Drogon's fire can magically shatter walls from sheer force alone. Yet when he burns people they don't get torn asunder like how stone does.
    12. Instead of just flying up to the Red Keep and killing Cersei ie the person who killed Missandei, Dany decides to waste time and give Cersei a chance to escape by murdering innocent civilians for no good reason at all.
    13. After terrorizing the 7 Kingdoms for a long time, Cersei dies by rocks.
    14. Dany after massacring children somehow thinks it is safe to be alone with people like Jon who obviously hated her decision. This after she already was betrayed by several people and when she already fingered Jon as one of her betrayers when Tyrion told her she was betrayed.
    15. The Unsullied and Dothraki fail to kill Jon.
    16. Tyrion ie a prisoner is asked to nominate a King.
    17. He picks Bran and no one objects despite Bran being a cripple with zero experience leading and who quite obviously is a weirdo.
    18. Bran pretty much implies that he knew he would be King all along and no one questions him as to whether he foresaw all this death and carnage and didn't warn them about it.
    19. Sansa asks her bro for independence and no one questions this nepotism.
    20. No one asks for their own independence despite Yarra in particular agreeing with Dany that the Iron Islands would be independent.
    21. Daario is nowhere to be found despite the time skip and despite Jon screwing and murdering the love of his life.
    22. Dothraki just disappear from story with no loot and with no mention of Dany.
    23. Jon is allowed by Greyworm to join the Nightwatch which is in the North where his sister rules. He then promptly leaves but apparently Greyworm doesn't give a shit because he is gone. So Jon's while banishment is basically bullshit.
    24. Tyrion is made hand with Bran saying he is the best choice because he made so many mistakes.

    Maybe if the show only had one or two of these things I would feel differently. But the show is littered with so many plot holes, plot armor, plot induced stupidity and generally unbelievable shit that it just renders the show a caricature of its former self.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  7. #7792
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think it's a combination of both.

    The reason he felt Jon was a better choice as ruler is because he clearly started disillusioned with Dany because in his eyes she was becoming more increasingly volatile. He CLEARLY feared what Dany would do in KL... and unfortunately his worst fears became true. So the two things sort of go hand in hand.
    Not what I asked. Show me where anyone showed concern that Dany would burn innocent children after she already won. I feared what Dany would do in KL's as well. That fear did not include her stupidly burning innocent children after she already won because it is nonsensical. So no you can't just pretend that characters saw this coming. They didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Again, they didn't turn on Cersi. They simply didn't want Dany's forces to kill them. At that moment no, they didn't care what happened to Cersi... they just didn't want to die. She didn't win over the people like she wanted... she just got the people of KL to fear her more than Cersi. The problem with Dany is that wasn't enough. That's one of the differences between Cersi and Dany. All Cersi cares about is power... she could care less what people thought about her. But Dany's messiah complex meant she required people to love her, and when she realized that wasn't possible the people of KL simply stopped mattering.
    Yeah if I know someone is coming to kill you and I surrender then I have turned on you. You are being a bit obtuse here.

    The problem with Dany is the writers obliterated the character in a completely inorganic way. Plenty of ways to show her going mad. This was literally the worst possible way.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  8. #7793
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Not what I asked. Show me where anyone showed concern that Dany would burn innocent children after she already won. I feared what Dany would do in KL's as well. That fear did not include her stupidly burning innocent children after she already won because it is nonsensical. So no you can't just pretend that characters saw this coming. They didn't.



    Yeah if I know someone is coming to kill you and I surrender then I have turned on you. You are being a bit obtuse here.

    The problem with Dany is the writers obliterated the character in a completely inorganic way. Plenty of ways to show her going mad. This was literally the worst possible way.
    I don't think the characters necessarily saw EXACTLY the circumstances which we ended up getting. Odds are pretty good Dany ended up actually being worse than they feared Dany might be. If they knew she was potentially this bad, they wouldn't be serving her in the first place. Cersi is probably the lesser of 2 evils in this case, because as bad as she is Cersi is a lot less dangerous.

    They were only starting to get a general sense that she was starting to lose it... but I don't think they realized just how far she had fallen until it was too late.

    And I don't think it's obtuse to confuse surrendering out of fear of death with actual loyalty. Again it was simply a matter of being more afraid of Cersi than Dany. Problem being that wasn't what Dany wanted, even though that unfortunately was all she was going to get. She wasn't going to get the world she wanted from them, so she removed them from her world. Again, not rational at all but the point was she was nuts by that point.

  9. #7794
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Nope. Varys betrayal was because he felt Jon would be a better ruler. Sure he had concerns about Dany but never to this level and those concerns likely go nowhere without him knowing about Jon's heritage.
    I disagree. He says that "perhaps Jon Snow is the solution to our problem", which implies the problem exists independently of his heritage.

    In his speech to Tyrion he talks a lot about what the realm (people) deserve and mentions the needs of ordinary men, women, and children. Yes, he felt Jon would be the better ruler, but he felt that way, in part, because of his fears about Dany. He even confronts her directly prior to that conversation stating that he promised he would express his concerns directly. His concern, of course, was that a direct assault in her state of mind was a serious risk to the people of King's Landing.

    Now, if you want to dig in your heels that he never directly said he feared she would slaughter innocents, I concede, he never said that. I think his fears about that were very clearly communicated, however.

  10. #7795
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    I disagree. He says that "perhaps Jon Snow is the solution to our problem", which implies the problem exists independently of his heritage.

    In his speech to Tyrion he talks a lot about what the realm (people) deserve and mentions the needs of ordinary men, women, and children. Yes, he felt Jon would be the better ruler, but he felt that way, in part, because of his fears about Dany. He even confronts her directly prior to that conversation stating that he promised he would express his concerns directly. His concern, of course, was that a direct assault in her state of mind was a serious risk to the people of King's Landing.

    Now, if you want to dig in your heels that he never directly said he feared she would slaughter innocents, I concede, he never said that. I think his fears about that were very clearly communicated, however.
    Yes my whole point was that they had fears related to what she would do to defeat Cersei.

    However she didnt burn children to defeat Cersei. She burned children for fun. Nothing in the show sets up anyone thinking she is that sadistic. This is out of character because it had nothing to do with her attaining power or the throne or punishing evil.

    If she had burned the city in order to defeat Cersei that would be consistent with her previous characterizarion. Instead she burning children for fun after the city had already surrendered. That is what makes it out of character.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-21-2019 at 08:47 PM.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  11. #7796
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I don't think the characters necessarily saw EXACTLY the circumstances which we ended up getting. Odds are pretty good Dany ended up actually being worse than they feared Dany might be. If they knew she was potentially this bad, they wouldn't be serving her in the first place. Cersi is probably the lesser of 2 evils in this case, because as bad as she is Cersi is a lot less dangerous.

    They were only starting to get a general sense that she was starting to lose it... but I don't think they realized just how far she had fallen until it was too late.

    And I don't think it's obtuse to confuse surrendering out of fear of death with actual loyalty. Again it was simply a matter of being more afraid of Cersi than Dany. Problem being that wasn't what Dany wanted, even though that unfortunately was all she was going to get. She wasn't going to get the world she wanted from them, so she removed them from her world. Again, not rational at all but the point was she was nuts by that point.
    Hence why it is not believable. I am saying the narrative did not set this level of madness up. You are saying it did but now saying no one foresaw how bad so then no the narrative did not set this level of madness up.

    We were not talking about loyalty. We were talking about whether they turned on her. They obviously did. Leaving your queen to die is turning on her.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  12. #7797
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  13. #7798
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Yes my whole point was that they had fears related to what she would do to defeat Cersei.

    However she didnt burn children to defeat Cersei. She burned children for fun. Nothing in the show sets up anyone thinking she is that sadistic. This is out of character because it had nothing to do with her attaining power or the throne or punishing evil.

    If she had burned the city in order to defeat Cersei that would be consistent with her previous characterizarion. Instead she burning children for fun after the city had already surrendered. That is what makes it out of character.
    They had fears about what she would do. That extra caveat you added there doesn't make any sense. It's a shallow interpretation that is so literal it deems your analysis deeply flawed. Frankly, it's clearly not correct.

    The fears about what she would do is why Tyrion, before the battle, implored her to agree to call off the attack when the bells ring. That is him fearing for those people and trying to gain some assurance from her that she is still thinking about their safety. She gives it and then goes and ignores it anyway.

    They feared the scope of the damage she'd inflict, including the deaths of innocents. I don't know how you take anything else from the actions of Varys or Tyrion prior to the battle. (That is not, for the record, to say this was well portrayed or written. Only that your needlessly narrow view on this is not supported by what was shown or said)

  14. #7799
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Aaron Rodgers also going on a rant is pretty great:

    https://twitter.com/espn/status/1130...509424640?s=21


    I saw someone say that Jon Snow going back to the join the freefolk was like if Simba went back to the jungle with Timon and Pumba after killing Scar and reuniting everyone.

    Guess D&D know more then Shakespeare.
    Last edited by PoorStudent; 05-21-2019 at 09:08 PM.

  15. #7800
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Hence why it is not believable. I am saying the narrative did not set this level of madness up. You are saying it did but now saying no one foresaw how bad so then no the narrative did not set this level of madness up.

    We were not talking about loyalty. We were talking about whether they turned on her. They obviously did. Leaving your queen to die is turning on her.
    I'm not saying viewers didn't necessarily forsee it to the degree we saw... I'm saying Vary and Tyrion didn't. Again, many viewers I have spoken to predicted she'd be the big bad years ago. But Vary and Tyrion probably didn't think in terms of the show needing a big bad for a TV show. They were simply sensing that she was starting to lose it. Problem being a queen with a dragon and the most powerful army in the world is a pretty big problem.

    And loyalty is frankly why they were killed. Dany didn't believe they would be loyal to her and her vision of the world, so she made sure they weren't going to be a part of it. She was expecting them to turn on Cersi and support her like what happened in the past... again, I think her messiah complex at work there. The Bells weren't enough. She wanted more, and didn't get it. YOU may have interpreted ringing a bell as them turning on Cersi, but for Dany that was far too little too late.

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