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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7831
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieHavoc View Post
    Good point.

    Though didn't someone throw feces at Joffrey at one point? I think they had a pretty good idea what type a dude he was. I don't really remember the circumstance though.

    They were poor people in flee bottom who were starving because of the war.

  2. #7832
    Once And Future BAMF Hellion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    I wouldn’t call Dany Mad. People are just saying that because we keep hearing about the Mad King. Aerys wasn’t like Dany. Aerys has no ambition. He wanted to stay in his castle and not be assassinated and produce healthy heirs. He was obsessed that people were conspiring against him and wanted to prove he was somewhat capable. He became a recluse who was so afraid of the blades in the Iron Throne that he wouldn’t cut his nails or hair. He was legit batshit by the end.

    Dany was just a tyrant/conquerer who embraced her destructive nature and wasn’t going to stop until she was on top and had everyone submitted so she could lead the world the way she thought best. She might have even been a decent ruler after she stopped killing her enemies. It was just that she clearly was going to run over the world and kill everyone who stood in her way..
    "Mad" is a strong word, and I'm unsure if Dany was or not. I have been re-watching the show from the beginning now and have noticed some things. She puts an unhealthy amount of faith in herself and her supposed destiny as the "last dragon." Granted, she had to, in order to survive some of the things she went through. She admits as much to Jon in Season 7. However, we see her in Qarth falling prey to some of her brother's delusions: she believes the people of Westeros will rise up to champion her when she arrives. This comes a season after Jorah warned her that the majority of people don't care who sits the Iron Throne. In this final season, she believed (and Tyrion told her) the people of King's Landing would rebel against Cersei if given the opportunity. They never did. Surrendering is not rebelling. The only Westerosi who joined her (Martells, Tyrells, Greyjoys) did so because they wanted revenge against Lannisters. Jon only allied himself with her initially because he needed her to fight the Night King with him. The rest of the Starks didn't want her. The Tarlys didn't want her.

    I think the buildup of Dany's flaws has been very apparent throughout the series, and she snapped during the sacking of King's Landing because she realized that almost nobody in Westeros wants her there and the people would never love and worship her like the ones she freed/ruled over in Essos. I think she snapped because she was now pretty much alone in the world, having lost two of her dragons and Jorah and Missandei on her campaigns trying to claim a throne she grew up feeling entitled to, and she realized she was never going to get any satisfaction winning the Throne.

    Was the execution of her "heel turn" in "The Bells" done poorly? Perhaps, but I was fine with it, had predicted her to be a villain from the beginning. I don't believe Dany's storyline and its conclusion are the worst aspects of this final season. Undoubtedly poorly executed were the White Walker/Army of the Dead story and the sudden decision to crown Bran king.
    Last edited by Hellion; 05-22-2019 at 07:56 AM.
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  3. #7833
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Tactically no, it served no purpose. But she's a mad queen that wanted to instill fear when she came to the conclusion that the people wouldn't love her.

    And again, I don't dispute that she already had fear. I'm just saying they feared her a heck of a lot more after she was done. But a lot probably hated her too ... no arguement tbere.
    Yeah people fearing you to the point they want to kill makes no sense and it was obvious what she did would do just that. So the problem here is her wanting people to fear her was suppose to be for the purposes of her maintaining her rule. Torching the GC does that. Flying around specifically burning civilians does not as it ensures people will want to kill her. You can't rule by fear if you are dead. Fear is a means not an end. The end here was suppose to be her ruling which her actions go against.

    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    I wouldn’t call Dany Mad. People are just saying that because we keep hearing about the Mad King. Aerys wasn’t like Dany. Aerys has no ambition. He wanted to stay in his castle and not be assassinated and produce healthy heirs. He was obsessed that people were conspiring against him and wanted to prove he was somewhat capable. He became a recluse who was so afraid of the blades in the Iron Throne that he wouldn’t cut his nails or hair. He was legit batshit by the end.

    Dany was just a tyrant/conquerer who embraced her destructive nature and wasn’t going to stop until she was on top and had everyone submitted so she could lead the world the way she thought best. She might have even been a decent ruler after she stopped killing her enemies. It was just that she clearly was going to run over the world and kill everyone who stood in her way..
    Yeah and the fundamental issue is Cersei was in her way and she elected to burn children who weren't in her way at all. Again, burning a city because you deem it necessary to win a battle is in keeping with what you described above. Burning a city by specifically targeting and burning civilians after they already surrendered and while leaving Cersei alive for a period of time is not in keeping with what you described above.

    People act like she wanted to burn cities for fun. No, all her previous comments about burning a city where obviously in the context of winning a war or punishing people who were evil. The disconnect here is that her burning of this city in this manner does align with that context. It was done for no real good reason. It did not aid her in winning a war. She bypassed punishing the evil person for a time period (Cersei) and it was guaranteed to lead to people wanting her dead. So the writers simply forgot that the burning was in the context of the ends justifying the means. What we got instead was the means without any meaningful end in mind. Everything she ever wanted could have been achieved without using that particularly means. It is almost like the writers were like, "Well we had her say she would burn a city so let's just have her burn a city without any thought given as to whether it fit with her stated ambitions."
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  4. #7834
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    "Mad" is a strong word, and I'm unsure if Dany was or not. I have been re-watching the show from the beginning now and have noticed some things. She puts an unhealthy amount of faith in herself and her supposed destiny as the "last dragon." Granted, she had to, in order to survive some of the things she went through. She admits as much to Jon in Season 7. However, we see her in Qarth falling prey to some of her brother's delusions: she believes the people of Westeros will rise up to champion her when she arrives. This comes a season after Jorah warned her that the majority of people don't care who sits the Iron Throne. In this final season, she believed (and Tyrion told her) the people of King's Landing would rebel against Cersei if given the opportunity. They never did. Surrendering is not rebelling. The only Westerosi who joined her (Martells, Tyrells, Greyjoys) did so because they wanted revenge against Lannisters. Jon only allied himself with her initially because he needed her to fight the Night King with him. The rest of the Starks didn't want her. The Tarlys didn't want her.

    I think the buildup of Dany's flaws has been very apparent throughout the series, and she snapped during the sacking of King's Landing because she realized that almost nobody in Westeros wants her there and the people would never love and worship her like the ones she freed/ruled over in Essos. I think she snapped because she was now pretty much alone in the world, having lost two of her dragons and Jorah and Missandei on her campaigns trying to claim a throne she grew up feeling entitled to, and she realized she was never going to get any satisfaction winning the Throne.
    Yeah, I'm sure there are more accurate psychological terms than "mad," but it's easy short hand for this show. Whatever the actual clinical term is, she's got issues.

    I DO think they have built it up reasonably well in the story, but it often just gets overlooked because a) she's super cool, and b) people are fine with most if not all of what she does because bad guys usually die from it. Batman probably has some pretty severe issues going to, but because he's a cool good guy and the end result is usually good people just tend to gloss over that. Same thing here.

    You want to root for Dany, and you want to think she's a good person because the people and it's easy to do as long as the people she kills happens to be bad guys. But you're not necessarily a good person just because the people you are killing happen to be bad guys, even though people are almost trained to think that way. So when someone other than a bad guy is on the receiving end, it's jarring.

  5. #7835
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Yeah people fearing you to the point they want to kill makes no sense and it was obvious what she did would do just that. So the problem here is her wanting people to fear her was suppose to be for the purposes of her maintaining her rule. Torching the GC does that. Flying around specifically burning civilians does not as it ensures people will want to kill her. You can't rule by fear if you are dead. Fear is a means not an end. The end here was suppose to be her ruling which her actions go against.



    Yeah and the fundamental issue is Cersei was in her way and she elected to burn children who weren't in her way at all. Again, burning a city because you deem it necessary to win a battle is in keeping with what you described above. Burning a city by specifically targeting and burning civilians after they already surrendered and while leaving Cersei alive for a period of time is not in keeping with what you described above.

    People act like she wanted to burn cities for fun. No, all her previous comments about burning a city where obviously in the context of winning a war or punishing people who were evil. The disconnect here is that her burning of this city in this manner does align with that context. It was done for no real good reason. It did not aid her in winning a war. She bypassed punishing the evil person for a time period (Cersei) and it was guaranteed to lead to people wanting her dead. So the writers simply forgot that the burning was in the context of the ends justifying the means. What we got instead was the means without any meaningful end in mind. Everything she ever wanted could have been achieved without using that particularly means. It is almost like the writers were like, "Well we had her say she would burn a city so let's just have her burn a city without any thought given as to whether it fit with her stated ambitions."
    No, people fearing you to the point where they want to kill doesn't make sense, but again... that's why they call her the mad queen instead of the sensible queen. You're not supposed to think what she's doing is actually the right thing, or even the smart thing. Bad guys do thing which normal sane people don't think are a good idea all the time. If we agreed with their actions, they wouldn't be bad guys.

    Nonetheless, using fear to control people is a pretty common thing in fiction. Tyrion flat out told Dany that was the reason the people in KL didn't turn on Cersi. So up to a point it works.

    And yes, you can't rule by fear if you are dead. That's why people wanted to kill Cersi, and why Jon had to kill Dany.

  6. #7836
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Yeah people fearing you to the point they want to kill makes no sense and it was obvious what she did would do just that. So the problem here is her wanting people to fear her was suppose to be for the purposes of her maintaining her rule. Torching the GC does that. Flying around specifically burning civilians does not as it ensures people will want to kill her. You can't rule by fear if you are dead. Fear is a means not an end. The end here was suppose to be her ruling which her actions go against.



    Yeah and the fundamental issue is Cersei was in her way and she elected to burn children who weren't in her way at all. Again, burning a city because you deem it necessary to win a battle is in keeping with what you described above. Burning a city by specifically targeting and burning civilians after they already surrendered and while leaving Cersei alive for a period of time is not in keeping with what you described above.

    People act like she wanted to burn cities for fun. No, all her previous comments about burning a city where obviously in the context of winning a war or punishing people who were evil. The disconnect here is that her burning of this city in this manner does align with that context. It was done for no real good reason. It did not aid her in winning a war. She bypassed punishing the evil person for a time period (Cersei) and it was guaranteed to lead to people wanting her dead. So the writers simply forgot that the burning was in the context of the ends justifying the means. What we got instead was the means without any meaningful end in mind. Everything she ever wanted could have been achieved without using that particularly means. It is almost like the writers were like, "Well we had her say she would burn a city so let's just have her burn a city without any thought given as to whether it fit with her stated ambitions."
    Writers didn't forget that for Dany burning as in the context of the ends justifying the means... the issue is that what Dany considers justifiably isn't necessarily the same thing as what Jon and Tyrion and most other sane people would view as justifiable.

    To Dany, she got to the point where she would kill whoever was in the way of her creating a new better world. And people like the ones in KL were an acceptable price to pay for that. In her warped mind she actually believed she was serving the greater good, unlike say a Cersi who likely is honest enough with herself to at least understand her actions are helping herself more than anything else. That's why Dany is nuts while Cersi, as evil as she is, probably isn't. It's why Dany is actually a lot more dangerous.

  7. #7837
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Let's just recap a few of the stupid things that happened this season.
    1. The Dothraki stupidly charge in the dark against an enemy of unknown number.

    Yep, that one was stupid. Clearly that was just to give us the scary spectacle of the Dothrakis' flaming swords going out one by one in the distance. But unforgivably dumb tactics. Jorah at least should have known better.

    2. The main characters were swarmed by undead only to be saved by ridiculous plot armor.

    Eh, you say "plot armor," I say "plot." You need certain characters to live long enough to fulfill their story purpose. It's drama, not documentary.

    3. The Night King and his White Walkers die without them even clashing swords with anyone.

    If those guys ever find themselves fighting toe to toe with swords, they've made a big mistake somewhere. Hand to hand combat is not what they're about.

    4. The Dothraki and Unsullied who were decimated during the fight suddenly respawn.

    Also weird.

    5. Euron magically hit a moving target in the air 3 times in quick succession.

    It wasn't just him shooting... there were at least a dozen scorpions on various ships. Rhaegal was caught completely by surprise... which might be the most hard-to-swallow element of the scene.

    6. Euron magically failed to hit Drogon about 1,000 scorpion shots after 5 above.

    This time Dany was forewarned and was smart enough to come straight down on them, above their zone of fire.

    Team Cersei was waaaaaay too confident in the ability of those scorpions to neutralize the dragon threat. Cersei, as always, thought she was a lot smarter than she was, and she didn't exactly have the best advisors... a mad scientist, a drunken pirate and a zombie.

    7. Instead of Dany simply flying behind the ships and burning them to shreds, she inexplicably charges straight ahead and then bails on her people.

    She was thrown into total confusion by the sudden loss of Rhaegal, and desperate not to lose Drogon as well. Daenerys was... well, a little self centered.

    8. Instead of killing all the Unsullied that had to abandon ship, Euron only captures a single person Missandei leaving an entire army of Unsullied to swim ashore and live to fight another day.

    Yeah, it was pretty stupid that they didn't have troops on Dragonstone waiting to capture the rest of them.

    9. Despite being braindead in 7, Dany figures out how to sneak up behind the enemy and torch the Golden Company.

    Wasn't rocket science... come down from straight above, torch all the scorpions with a single strafing run, and then the Golden Company can't do anything but stand there and die.

    10. Despite the benefit of a huge city, Cersei stations the GC outside of the walls.

    Maybe she was hoping to intimidate Dany's army into withdrawing? Not knowing that Unsullied and Dothraki are not going to chicken out of a battle. I'm surprised the commander of the GC wasn't more freaked out about the prospect of going up against dragons.

    11. Drogon's fire can magically shatter walls from sheer force alone. Yet when he burns people they don't get torn asunder like how stone does.

    People burst into flame and disintegrate pretty much instantly. Stone doesn't. Those buildings did seem to go down with bizarre ease, though.

    12. Instead of just flying up to the Red Keep and killing Cersei ie the person who killed Missandei, Dany decides to waste time and give Cersei a chance to escape by murdering innocent civilians for no good reason at all.

    I'm not sure rational thought was the guiding force in that.

    13. After terrorizing the 7 Kingdoms for a long time, Cersei dies by rocks.

    If GRRM has taught us anything, it's that poetically just deaths rarely happen.

    14. Dany after massacring children somehow thinks it is safe to be alone with people like Jon who obviously hated her decision. This after she already was betrayed by several people and when she already fingered Jon as one of her betrayers when Tyrion told her she was betrayed.

    She had no reason to believe that Jon "Mr. Honorable" Snow would conceal his feelings on the matter (he never had before) or straight up murder her while embracing her and hailing her as his eternal queen.

    15. The Unsullied and Dothraki fail to kill Jon.

    You might accept that from the Lawful Neutral Unsullied, not so much from the Chaotic Neutral Dothraki. Neither group would much care whether it meant war with the North.

    16. Tyrion ie a prisoner is asked to nominate a King.

    Grey Worm had to obey orders... Dany had ordered Tyrion imprisoned, but hadn't yet pronounced a sentence of death on him. (Apparently that happens seconds before the actual execution.) And nobody else there (except maybe Yara) had any reason to hold Tyrion's actions against him. He was the only one with the courage to basically throw his own life away by confronting the mass murderess right to her face in front of her troops. Probably the only reason she didn't have Grey Worm behead him on the spot is because she really liked that fiery execution thing.

    17. He picks Bran and no one objects despite Bran being a cripple with zero experience leading and who quite obviously is a weirdo.

    I think it was clear to everyone that the Small Council would do most of the actual governing, and Bran could now concentrate on using his unique skills without having to convince people to believe him or act on his knowledge.

    18. Bran pretty much implies that he knew he would be King all along and no one questions him as to whether he foresaw all this death and carnage and didn't warn them about it.

    I'm pretty sure somebody will question him about that. Bran is all about letting things play out the way they have to, in order to reach the most successful outcome.

    19. Sansa asks her bro for independence and no one questions this nepotism.

    Errr... nepotism wasn't exactly something people worried about in feudal style societies. No one questions why anyone gets to be a lord just based on whose uterus they came out of, either.

    20. No one asks for their own independence despite Yarra in particular agreeing with Dany that the Iron Islands would be independent.

    I imagine the question of Ironborn and Dornish independence will certainly be raised. But Yara and Prince Whatshisname probably figured that King Bran would be much easier to convince than any more conventional king.

    21. Daario is nowhere to be found despite the time skip and despite Jon screwing and murdering the love of his life.

    Daario was back in Meereen, and nobody left him a teleporter.

    22. Dothraki just disappear from story with no loot and with no mention of Dany.

    Yes, this one is hard to swallow. We're told that Dothraki tend to just shrug and move on when their khal is killed (that's what they did when Dany burned all the khals), but Dany wasn't just any khal... and the Dothraki are stranded in a land where they don't speak the language, where literally everyone considers them rapacious foreign invaders, and where they have no support structure whatsoever. I'd love to hear the producers explain what happened to them.

    23. Jon is allowed by Greyworm to join the Nightwatch which is in the North where his sister rules. He then promptly leaves but apparently Greyworm doesn't give a shit because he is gone. So Jon's while banishment is basically bullshit.

    Jon's personal honor will be enough to enforce his banishment, whether Grey Worm believes it or not. And as far as GW is concerned, this story is over and he wants to go fulfill his promise to Missy of protecting her homeland.

    24. Tyrion is made hand with Bran saying he is the best choice because he made so many mistakes.

    And has the benefit of being smart enough to learn from those mistakes, and honorable and brave enough to want to rectify them. Seems like a good choice to me.

  8. #7838
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    Dany is better defined as a megalomaniac

  9. #7839
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    No, people fearing you to the point where they want to kill doesn't make sense, but again... that's why they call her the mad queen instead of the sensible queen. You're not supposed to think what she's doing is actually the right thing, or even the smart thing. Bad guys do thing which normal sane people don't think are a good idea all the time. If we agreed with their actions, they wouldn't be bad guys.

    Nonetheless, using fear to control people is a pretty common thing in fiction. Tyrion flat out told Dany that was the reason the people in KL didn't turn on Cersi. So up to a point it works.

    And yes, you can't rule by fear if you are dead. That's why people wanted to kill Cersi, and why Jon had to kill Dany.
    It is also why her father died which is why she should know better. And no one called her the Mad Queen until after this stupid action. You are acting like she showed evidence of being mad before this when in fact she did not. This madness is the result of terrible writing choices this season.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Writers didn't forget that for Dany burning as in the context of the ends justifying the means... the issue is that what Dany considers justifiably isn't necessarily the same thing as what Jon and Tyrion and most other sane people would view as justifiable.

    To Dany, she got to the point where she would kill whoever was in the way of her creating a new better world. And people like the ones in KL were an acceptable price to pay for that. In her warped mind she actually believed she was serving the greater good, unlike say a Cersi who likely is honest enough with herself to at least understand her actions are helping herself more than anything else. That's why Dany is nuts while Cersi, as evil as she is, probably isn't. It's why Dany is actually a lot more dangerous.
    What Dany considered justifiable in Episode 5 is something she didn't consider justifiable at any point in the previous 7 years of stories. That is the issue. Mainly because these people were actually not in the way of her creating a better world. These people were a detour on creating a better world because their deaths were completely unnecessary in creating a better world. So no they weren't an acceptable price to pay for that.

    For them to be in the way of her creating a better world, they would need to be preventing her from killing Cersei. They were not. They would need to have taken up arms against her. They did not. They would need to refuse to bend the knee. They did not.

    If a criminal is holed up in a house and instead of killing the criminal, you walk a few blocks away from said criminal and just randomly kill a family, you can't then claim that killing that family was necessary for you to create a better world by killing the criminal. That is what happened here. Cersei ie the criminal was in the Red Keep and instead of creating a better world by killing her, Dany elected to go fly down other streets and burn families to a crisp first. That is terrible writing. It renders the story unbelievable. You can have written her burning down the Red Keep and killing civilians in the process and that would still be bad but fit the story.

    In any event, this is getting repetitive. There are plenty of stories where characters are insane and the story does a good job of setting up why. No one is asking that Dany not be mad. Dany's actions can make sense within the context of the story even if she herself is acting insane. We aren't going to resolve this difference of opinion as you are making an in-story argument while I am making a meta argument.
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  10. #7840
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    1. The Dothraki stupidly charge in the dark against an enemy of unknown number.

    Yep, that one was stupid. Clearly that was just to give us the scary spectacle of the Dothrakis' flaming swords going out one by one in the distance. But unforgivably dumb tactics. Jorah at least should have known better.

    2. The main characters were swarmed by undead only to be saved by ridiculous plot armor.

    Eh, you say "plot armor," I say "plot." You need certain characters to live long enough to fulfill their story purpose. It's drama, not documentary.

    3. The Night King and his White Walkers die without them even clashing swords with anyone.

    If those guys ever find themselves fighting toe to toe with swords, they've made a big mistake somewhere. Hand to hand combat is not what they're about.

    4. The Dothraki and Unsullied who were decimated during the fight suddenly respawn.

    Also weird.

    5. Euron magically hit a moving target in the air 3 times in quick succession.

    It wasn't just him shooting... there were at least a dozen scorpions on various ships. Rhaegal was caught completely by surprise... which might be the most hard-to-swallow element of the scene.

    6. Euron magically failed to hit Drogon about 1,000 scorpion shots after 5 above.

    This time Dany was forewarned and was smart enough to come straight down on them, above their zone of fire.

    Team Cersei was waaaaaay too confident in the ability of those scorpions to neutralize the dragon threat. Cersei, as always, thought she was a lot smarter than she was, and she didn't exactly have the best advisors... a mad scientist, a drunken pirate and a zombie.

    7. Instead of Dany simply flying behind the ships and burning them to shreds, she inexplicably charges straight ahead and then bails on her people.

    She was thrown into total confusion by the sudden loss of Rhaegal, and desperate not to lose Drogon as well. Daenerys was... well, a little self centered.

    8. Instead of killing all the Unsullied that had to abandon ship, Euron only captures a single person Missandei leaving an entire army of Unsullied to swim ashore and live to fight another day.

    Yeah, it was pretty stupid that they didn't have troops on Dragonstone waiting to capture the rest of them.

    9. Despite being braindead in 7, Dany figures out how to sneak up behind the enemy and torch the Golden Company.

    Wasn't rocket science... come down from straight above, torch all the scorpions with a single strafing run, and then the Golden Company can't do anything but stand there and die.

    10. Despite the benefit of a huge city, Cersei stations the GC outside of the walls.

    Maybe she was hoping to intimidate Dany's army into withdrawing? Not knowing that Unsullied and Dothraki are not going to chicken out of a battle. I'm surprised the commander of the GC wasn't more freaked out about the prospect of going up against dragons.

    11. Drogon's fire can magically shatter walls from sheer force alone. Yet when he burns people they don't get torn asunder like how stone does.

    People burst into flame and disintegrate pretty much instantly. Stone doesn't. Those buildings did seem to go down with bizarre ease, though.

    12. Instead of just flying up to the Red Keep and killing Cersei ie the person who killed Missandei, Dany decides to waste time and give Cersei a chance to escape by murdering innocent civilians for no good reason at all.

    I'm not sure rational thought was the guiding force in that.

    13. After terrorizing the 7 Kingdoms for a long time, Cersei dies by rocks.

    If GRRM has taught us anything, it's that poetically just deaths rarely happen.

    14. Dany after massacring children somehow thinks it is safe to be alone with people like Jon who obviously hated her decision. This after she already was betrayed by several people and when she already fingered Jon as one of her betrayers when Tyrion told her she was betrayed.

    She had no reason to believe that Jon "Mr. Honorable" Snow would conceal his feelings on the matter (he never had before) or straight up murder her while embracing her and hailing her as his eternal queen.

    15. The Unsullied and Dothraki fail to kill Jon.

    You might accept that from the Lawful Neutral Unsullied, not so much from the Chaotic Neutral Dothraki. Neither group would much care whether it meant war with the North.

    16. Tyrion ie a prisoner is asked to nominate a King.

    Grey Worm had to obey orders... Dany had ordered Tyrion imprisoned, but hadn't yet pronounced a sentence of death on him. (Apparently that happens seconds before the actual execution.) And nobody else there (except maybe Yara) had any reason to hold Tyrion's actions against him. He was the only one with the courage to basically throw his own life away by confronting the mass murderess right to her face in front of her troops. Probably the only reason she didn't have Grey Worm behead him on the spot is because she really liked that fiery execution thing.

    17. He picks Bran and no one objects despite Bran being a cripple with zero experience leading and who quite obviously is a weirdo.

    I think it was clear to everyone that the Small Council would do most of the actual governing, and Bran could now concentrate on using his unique skills without having to convince people to believe him or act on his knowledge.

    18. Bran pretty much implies that he knew he would be King all along and no one questions him as to whether he foresaw all this death and carnage and didn't warn them about it.

    I'm pretty sure somebody will question him about that. Bran is all about letting things play out the way they have to, in order to reach the most successful outcome.

    19. Sansa asks her bro for independence and no one questions this nepotism.

    Errr... nepotism wasn't exactly something people worried about in feudal style societies. No one questions why anyone gets to be a lord just based on whose uterus they came out of, either.

    20. No one asks for their own independence despite Yarra in particular agreeing with Dany that the Iron Islands would be independent.

    I imagine the question of Ironborn and Dornish independence will certainly be raised. But Yara and Prince Whatshisname probably figured that King Bran would be much easier to convince than any more conventional king.

    21. Daario is nowhere to be found despite the time skip and despite Jon screwing and murdering the love of his life.

    Daario was back in Meereen, and nobody left him a teleporter.

    22. Dothraki just disappear from story with no loot and with no mention of Dany.

    Yes, this one is hard to swallow. We're told that Dothraki tend to just shrug and move on when their khal is killed (that's what they did when Dany burned all the khals), but Dany wasn't just any khal... and the Dothraki are stranded in a land where they don't speak the language, where literally everyone considers them rapacious foreign invaders, and where they have no support structure whatsoever. I'd love to hear the producers explain what happened to them.

    23. Jon is allowed by Greyworm to join the Nightwatch which is in the North where his sister rules. He then promptly leaves but apparently Greyworm doesn't give a shit because he is gone. So Jon's while banishment is basically bullshit.

    Jon's personal honor will be enough to enforce his banishment, whether Grey Worm believes it or not. And as far as GW is concerned, this story is over and he wants to go fulfill his promise to Missy of protecting her homeland.

    24. Tyrion is made hand with Bran saying he is the best choice because he made so many mistakes.

    And has the benefit of being smart enough to learn from those mistakes, and honorable and brave enough to want to rectify them. Seems like a good choice to me.
    I won't go through all of these with counterpoints but I will just say that the accumulation of these points just gives a general sense of sloppiness in storytelling. As for a few I want to point out.

    2. My issue with this is it is dumb. If you want to keep characters alive then don't show them being swarmed by undead then cut away only to cut back and there is no explanation of how they survived the swarm. It happened over and over in that battle and got to be absurd.

    3. The NK story falls flat when they fail to clash swords with a single person. I don't expect them to be duking it out all the time but after 7 years of buildup some sort of clash of swords was needed IMO.

    6-9. This whole sequence is just dumb. Dany has been in battle before including with the undead. To be so utterly confused by scorpions and worse to just abandon Missendei and her allies is dumb. Like where was she when they were fishing Missandei out of the water. As you said not rocket science to attack from high or from behind so how could she possibly not figure it out or at least hang around to ensure her best friend was not captured.

    21. People been teleporting on this show since season 7 and if the time skip allowed all the other Lords to reach KL, not sure how the Unsullied or Dothraki didn't send word to Daario in Mereen.

    23. But Jon already abandoned the Watch. He left with Tormund. Tormund is not a part of the watch. He is part of the wildings. So he is banished to the Night Watch and they immediately allow him to leave to go live with the Wildings.

    I won't belabor the points about Dany's madness as been covered in detail already. All in all, just too many things that collectively just made this season feel like poor storytelling. Given how meticulous the books and how tight the first 5 seasons in storytelling were, this just felt like a completely different show to me.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    23. But Jon already abandoned the Watch. He left with Tormund. Tormund is not a part of the watch. He is part of the wildings. So he is banished to the Night Watch and they immediately allow him to leave to go live with the Wildings.
    The fact that he's going to live with the Wildlings doesn't mean he's abandoning the Night's Watch. Tormund's band probably won't settle too far north of the Wall. They probably no longer have the numbers to be 100% self sufficient, so they'll want to stay close enough to be able to trade with the settlements in The Gift (which now basically belongs to Jon, BTW). It would be pretty pointless for Jon to just sit alone in Castle Black, guarding against nothing but the occasional stray wolverine. He will be close enough to use Castle Black as a base when he needs to. Remember, he asked Arya to come visit him there.

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    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    The fact that he's going to live with the Wildlings doesn't mean he's abandoning the Night's Watch. Tormund's band probably won't settle too far north of the Wall. They probably no longer have the numbers to be 100% self sufficient, so they'll want to stay close enough to be able to trade with the settlements in The Gift (which now basically belongs to Jon, BTW). It would be pretty pointless for Jon to just sit alone in Castle Black, guarding against nothing but the occasional stray wolverine. He will be close enough to use Castle Black as a base when he needs to. Remember, he asked Arya to come visit him there.
    Yeah I think we will have to agree to disagree. In the end, it is not really a punishment and frankly is probably where he would prefer to be. Your scenario is plausible but not what I think is intended. I think ultimately Bran basically just pulled a fast one on Greyworm as he ultimately knows that Jon will enjoy his life there.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    "Mad" is a strong word, and I'm unsure if Dany was or not. I have been re-watching the show from the beginning now and have noticed some things. She puts an unhealthy amount of faith in herself and her supposed destiny as the "last dragon." Granted, she had to, in order to survive some of the things she went through. She admits as much to Jon in Season 7. However, we see her in Qarth falling prey to some of her brother's delusions: she believes the people of Westeros will rise up to champion her when she arrives. This comes a season after Jorah warned her that the majority of people don't care who sits the Iron Throne. In this final season, she believed (and Tyrion told her) the people of King's Landing would rebel against Cersei if given the opportunity. They never did. Surrendering is not rebelling. The only Westerosi who joined her (Martells, Tyrells, Greyjoys) did so because they wanted revenge against Lannisters. Jon only allied himself with her initially because he needed her to fight the Night King with him. The rest of the Starks didn't want her. The Tarlys didn't want her.

    I think the buildup of Dany's flaws has been very apparent throughout the series, and she snapped during the sacking of King's Landing because she realized that almost nobody in Westeros wants her there and the people would never love and worship her like the ones she freed/ruled over in Essos. I think she snapped because she was now pretty much alone in the world, having lost two of her dragons and Jorah and Missandei on her campaigns trying to claim a throne she grew up feeling entitled to, and she realized she was never going to get any satisfaction winning the Throne.

    Was the execution of her "heel turn" in "The Bells" done poorly? Perhaps, but I was fine with it, had predicted her to be a villain from the beginning. I don't believe Dany's storyline and its conclusion are the worst aspects of this final season. Undoubtedly poorly executed were the White Walker/Army of the Dead story and the sudden decision to crown Bran king.


    Daenerys ending as an even worst tyrant than Cercei(already mad and cruel) would have worked better, if we have more time and better pace. Hell, even Bran as King would have worked, if they worked better on his character and his contribution to the Great War.
    " I am Loki Scar-Lip, Loki Skywalker, Loki Giant's Child, Loki Lie-Smith. I am Loki, who is fire and wit and hate. I am Loki. And I will be under an obligation to no one."

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    Yeah Jon was first truly happy when he was with the Wildling's. They didn't care about his past or lineage or anything like that. So this is not really a "punishment" for him at all (at least not from his POV).

    Jon being essentially King Beyond the Wall and Sansa being Queen in the North aren't bad places for their characters to end up imo. It was more the execution that was sloppy. Bran being King, that on the other hand, that I didn't really buy. Their logic there was, suspect, at best.

    Also are the Iron Islands independent now or not? Because that was a big thing for Yara, but the episode doesn't touch on that at all, which was irritating.

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    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Yeah Jon was first truly happy when he was with the Wildling's. They didn't care about his past or lineage or anything like that. So this is not really a "punishment" for him at all (at least not from his POV).

    Also are the Iron Islands independent now or not? Because that was a big thing for Yara, but the episode doesn't touch on that at all, which was irritating.
    Iron Islands will be covered in fan fiction. Just make up whatever story you want about it since the writers didn't care enough to tie up their loose ends.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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