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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7846
    Incredible Member Master Planner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Yeah Jon was first truly happy when he was with the Wildling's. They didn't care about his past or lineage or anything like that. So this is not really a "punishment" for him at all (at least not from his POV).

    Jon being essentially King Beyond the Wall and Sansa being Queen in the North aren't bad places for their characters to end up imo. It was more the execution that was sloppy. Bran being King, that on the other hand, that I didn't really buy. Their logic there was, suspect, at best.

    Also are the Iron Islands independent now or not? Because that was a big thing for Yara, but the episode doesn't touch on that at all, which was irritating.
    The funny thing is, North gaining independence would lead into a spiral of kingdoms abandoning the unified realm. Ironborns rebelled twice for that. I can't buy accepting North leaving and them staying part of the realm. At best, after Yara, i could see Ironborns cutting all connection with the other kingdoms. Also,it's the problem of the culture. The North could be a peaceful kingdom or cooperate with the others, especially now that House Stark controls all Westeros. Ironborn' culture is one of looting and raiding. Yara could keep the Islands peaceful, especially after the destruction of the Iron Fleet, but after rebuilding their navy, i could see them back to their old ways.
    " I am Loki Scar-Lip, Loki Skywalker, Loki Giant's Child, Loki Lie-Smith. I am Loki, who is fire and wit and hate. I am Loki. And I will be under an obligation to no one."

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  2. #7847
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    The thing is, Sansa's argument for an independent North could apply to ALL of the kingdoms honestly. She makes it sounds like it's uniquely there's but it's really not

    I could see Sansa letting the Ironborn go, after everything that's happened they have no stomach for more war right now. The fact that the show took no time whatsoever to address/clarify it, is what's frustrating imo.

  3. #7848
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Planner View Post
    The funny thing is, North gaining independence would lead into a spiral of kingdoms abandoning the unified realm. Ironborns rebelled twice for that. I can't buy accepting North leaving and them staying part of the realm. At best, after Yara, i could see Ironborns cutting all connection with the other kingdoms. Also,it's the problem of the culture. The North could be a peaceful kingdom or cooperate with the others, especially now that House Stark controls all Westeros. Ironborn' culture is one of looting and raiding. Yara could keep the Islands peaceful, especially after the destruction of the Iron Fleet, but after rebuilding their navy, i could see them back to their old ways.
    TBH, I don't think really that any Kingdom other than the Greyjoys would really be all that interested in leaving. Really, the reason why the Greyjoys want to leave is because they want to attack the other kingdoms, which the other kingdoms don't really share a like desire to do.

    I think they'd rather get their guy as King (or at least have The King agree in their interests), rather than just being independent. This gives them far more potential benefits, and really it feels like King doesn't really do that much or place so many restrictions on the various kingdoms. I mean, it seems like they all have their own standing army, I'm sure they pay taxes but it's never really suggested as being a major issue, they each maintain their own culture and religions, so aside from addressing conflicts between kingdoms, it seems like the crown doesn't do much and isn't really a big deal to kneel to (as long as they don't kill them, obv)

  4. #7849
    Incredible Member Master Planner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorthon616 View Post
    TBH, I don't think really that any Kingdom other than the Greyjoys would really be all that interested in leaving. Really, the reason why the Greyjoys want to leave is because they want to attack the other kingdoms, which the other kingdoms don't really share a like desire to do.

    I think they'd rather get their guy as King (or at least have The King agree in their interests), rather than just being independent. This gives them far more potential benefits, and really it feels like King doesn't really do that much or place so many restrictions on the various kingdoms. I mean, it seems like they all have their own standing army, I'm sure they pay taxes but it's never really suggested as being a major issue, they each maintain their own culture and religions, so aside from addressing conflicts between kingdoms, it seems like the crown doesn't do much and isn't really a big deal to kneel to (as long as they don't kill them, obv)
    The difficulty is that their culture is too warlike. Although they were pacified after Aegon's conquest, Balon's 2 revolutions and Euron put more in the flame of Ironborn "nationalism". They will stay pacified, thanks to their naval loses and Yara's leadership, but if one kingdom is to start a war against another, that's the Iron Islands.
    " I am Loki Scar-Lip, Loki Skywalker, Loki Giant's Child, Loki Lie-Smith. I am Loki, who is fire and wit and hate. I am Loki. And I will be under an obligation to no one."

    Previously known as Nefarius

  5. #7850
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    The North is different from the rest of the Kingdoms. It’s roughly the size of half the continent. Beyond that, they worship the Old Gods, not the Seven and are considered to be a different Race (First Men vs Andals). Multiple rulers acknowledge that the North is a very difficult region to maintain under control and that it is only with total compliance from the Warden of the North that they are manageable in the Kingdom. Roose Bolton when he was Warden betrayed the Stark’s for the Lannisters, then ignored the Lannisters when it suited him. The Stark’s were King’s in Westeros longer than nearly every other House.

    By comparison the Iron Born on their best day were just part of the Riverlands kingdom and have gotten the hell kicked out of them whenever they seceded. Dorne mostly does its own thing anyways and having a King is a rough formality. The rest of the regions were constantly warring and it made sense to end that for one rule. It’s overall better for them.

  6. #7851
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    https://www.yahoo.com/news/game-thro...092200963.html

    Even Maisie and Lena wanted Arya to kill Cersei.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  7. #7852
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    They could make a new show now that game of throne has ended.

    GAME OF SECESSIONS!!!

  8. #7853
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    The North is different from the rest of the Kingdoms. It’s roughly the size of half the continent. Beyond that, they worship the Old Gods, not the Seven and are considered to be a different Race (First Men vs Andals). Multiple rulers acknowledge that the North is a very difficult region to maintain under control and that it is only with total compliance from the Warden of the North that they are manageable in the Kingdom. Roose Bolton when he was Warden betrayed the Stark’s for the Lannisters, then ignored the Lannisters when it suited him. The Stark’s were King’s in Westeros longer than nearly every other House.

    By comparison the Iron Born on their best day were just part of the Riverlands kingdom and have gotten the hell kicked out of them whenever they seceded. Dorne mostly does its own thing anyways and having a King is a rough formality. The rest of the regions were constantly warring and it made sense to end that for one rule. It’s overall better for them.
    That and like Sansa said so many Northman died fighting the south it is going to take at least a couple of generations for their hatred of the south to subside. We have to remember that the North has been at war with South since season 1 when Rob first took up arms and led his men south. The North was fighting them for most of the series until the betrayal at the Red Wedding and then the crown had the gaul to put the Boltons in charge which even more infuriated the North. Then when the fate of the whole world was at stake the South again betrayed the North by not sending troops. The hatred of the crown probably runs so deep right now that if Sansa had bent the knee things would have gotten really ugly in the North even with it being a Stark on the throne.

  9. #7854
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Yeah not buying it. A Northman sits on the throne. Kinda of bullshit to say Bran has the best story but yet not good enough to convince his own people and sister to follow him.

    Why any Kingdom would accept the rule of someone rejected by his own kin is beyond me.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  10. #7855
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    It is also why her father died which is why she should know better. And no one called her the Mad Queen until after this stupid action. You are acting like she showed evidence of being mad before this when in fact she did not. This madness is the result of terrible writing choices this season.



    What Dany considered justifiable in Episode 5 is something she didn't consider justifiable at any point in the previous 7 years of stories. That is the issue. Mainly because these people were actually not in the way of her creating a better world. These people were a detour on creating a better world because their deaths were completely unnecessary in creating a better world. So no they weren't an acceptable price to pay for that.

    For them to be in the way of her creating a better world, they would need to be preventing her from killing Cersei. They were not. They would need to have taken up arms against her. They did not. They would need to refuse to bend the knee. They did not.

    If a criminal is holed up in a house and instead of killing the criminal, you walk a few blocks away from said criminal and just randomly kill a family, you can't then claim that killing that family was necessary for you to create a better world by killing the criminal. That is what happened here. Cersei ie the criminal was in the Red Keep and instead of creating a better world by killing her, Dany elected to go fly down other streets and burn families to a crisp first. That is terrible writing. It renders the story unbelievable. You can have written her burning down the Red Keep and killing civilians in the process and that would still be bad but fit the story.

    In any event, this is getting repetitive. There are plenty of stories where characters are insane and the story does a good job of setting up why. No one is asking that Dany not be mad. Dany's actions can make sense within the context of the story even if she herself is acting insane. We aren't going to resolve this difference of opinion as you are making an in-story argument while I am making a meta argument.
    I think that's where the disconnect you're having is... you're expectation is that an insane villain should still be acting like a sane person. Conversely, I think the point of having an insane villain is for them to NOT act sane. If what Dany was doing was reasonable and made perfect sense, she wouldn't be the villain.

    She's a person, viotile in nature anyways, who apparently by genetics has a greater tendency to snap, placed in a very emotionally difficult situation, and snapping. No, she didn't necessarily go to measures as extreme as this in the past. She wasn't as emotionally burned, and she had a support system in place to help keep her in check. But for Dany, GoT was the journey for a villain... she didn't start out as the villain, but became one as the things which kept her in check were removed and the loss of friends and loved ones took a bigger toll on her. She didn't go this far until now because she didn't snap until now. Not every villain was born one out of the womb... it had to start somewhere and for Dany this was where it started.

  11. #7856
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Yeah not buying it. A Northman sits on the throne. Kinda of bullshit to say Bran has the best story but yet not good enough to convince his own people and sister to follow him.

    Why any Kingdom would accept the rule of someone rejected by his own kin is beyond me.
    I can buy a lot of the Kingdoms accepting Bran after people like Dany and Cersi honestly. I think Starks have a reputation for being good honorable people, and after the last couple rulers they have had, that's probably a nice change of pace. Plus, the fact that he can't have kids likely is a plus for a lot of people as he can be seen as more of a transitional ruler anyways. No one loves the guy, but no one has a problem with him either... that may be the best they can do on relatively short notice.

  12. #7857
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I can buy a lot of the Kingdoms accepting Bran after people like Dany and Cersi honestly. I think Starks have a reputation for being good honorable people, and after the last couple rulers they have had, that's probably a nice change of pace. Plus, the fact that he can't have kids likely is a plus for a lot of people as he can be seen as more of a transitional ruler anyways. No one loves the guy, but no one has a problem with him either... that may be the best they can do on relatively short notice.
    But, what about the veteran of two wars, the Head of House Tarly? I mean, so what if he was told to sit and be a good boy by his niece? He would lead the 6 Kingdoms to the same glory he led the Riverlands to!

  13. #7858
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    But, what about the veteran of two wars, the Head of House Tarly? I mean, so what if he was told to sit and be a good boy by his niece? He would lead the 6 Kingdoms to the same glory he led the Riverlands to!
    Sasha at least probably wouldn't mind having that guy as king. She seems to have him pretty well trained. He's got sit down... just needs to work on fetch and roll over, and hes' good to go.

  14. #7859
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Yeah not buying it. A Northman sits on the throne. Kinda of bullshit to say Bran has the best story but yet not good enough to convince his own people and sister to follow him.

    Why any Kingdom would accept the rule of someone rejected by his own kin is beyond me.
    They didnt reject him or at least that wasnt the intent. Sansa was looking beyond the now. She made a good point. Bran cant have kids and therefore the his reign dies with him. Who knows how benevolent the next king may or may not be. By arranging for the North's independence, Sansa doesnt have to worry about that. She maintains control through her and her bloodline

    The kingdoms accept Bran for peace. Given his current state of mind, he's the most neutral and doesnt have the biases that any of the other potential rules may have. Im sure many of them are plotting to take control when Bran dies (heck he may even have an assasination plot against him) but for now, choosing him is the safest option

  15. #7860
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Not a narrow view at all or shallow. Collateral damage in defeating an enemy and mass murder for fun are two entirely different things.

    Also her flat out lying to Tyrion is also out of character. Tyrion appeared more concerned for his family as immediately after he goes to free Jamie and instructs hin to try and convince Cersei to surrender and ring the bells. So it was in part an attempt to give them the opportunity to escape. So no dont think mass murder for fun was on his mind at all. If he actually thought that he would not have betrayed Varys and there would be no need for them to have Dany flat out like to him.

    Tyrion was quite content to allow his mass murdering sister escape punishment for all ber crimes.
    In all seriousness, you are not keeping much of anything straight right now. The difference between "collateral damage" and "mass murder" was in the eyes of the beholders. To Dany, she saw innocents who died in this attack as the price of siding with Cersei in a war. (see: collateral damage) To Varys and Tyrion these people mattered more than the war and not doing everything possible to protect them was the equal of murder. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.

    Secondly, it is possible for humans to have two different thoughts about two different situations. Tyrion can be both worried about his brother and worried about the people of KL. Clearly he was worried about his brother. He also clearly cared about the people because he interrupted the meeting about the attack to plead with Dany about the bells. The name of the freaking episode is "bells".

    Cmon man, your point doesn't have much ground to stand on because you are ignoring what inconveniences your argument. It is nonsense to claim Tyrion and Varys weren't worried about her killing many innocent people and your justifications are only getting more bizarre.

    Many discussions in this thread are matters of opinion, but what you are claiming with the evidence you are claiming, isn't an opinion. It's plainly false. I think you can criticize the way this show was plotted without falsehoods.
    Last edited by Theleviathan; 05-22-2019 at 12:24 PM.

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