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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7951
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The easy explanation is that when he said he coudn't be lord of anything, he didn't know at the time he would be king. Doesn't mean he didn't know later. I don't think he necessarily knows all things at all times. He might have learned things at some point in time without necessarily knowing them all along. Point being we don't exactly know what he knows or when he learned it, so blaming him for stuff like Dany going nuts is a bit of a stretch. He can't be held responsible for every bad thing that happens, or every bad decision everyone else makes simply because he potentially has the ability to MAYBE know about it in advance. I think it's arguably more dangerous if he were to decide to play god and go that route. That'll probably drive him nuts faster than even Dany. For him, less probably is more.
    Again, that was the problem with the vague comment(s) Bran has made. Can I blame him for what happened to Dany? Yes...and no. The writers failed to make it clear just what Bran knew and when.

    So it comes down to two basic possibilities (with shades in between). 1. Bran gets totally random flashes of what is going to happen, such as 'he needs to go to KL to be king' or 'he needs to sit in this courtyard because this is where Arya offs the NK) or, 2. Bran spends a great deal of his time looking at the future and knows the details and acts (or doesn't act) so those details will come to pass, either because that's how things have to be, or because that's how Bran wants them to be.

    I don't think it was ever made clear if Bran can do anything to change the future? Or is it through Bran's actions and/or inactions that cause the future to happen as it should?

    There are a lot of possibilities but no actual canon/hard answers because Bran was written too mysteriously in the show.

  2. #7952
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The easy explanation is that when he said he coudn't be lord of anything, he didn't know at the time he would be king. Doesn't mean he didn't know later. I don't think he necessarily knows all things at all times. He might have learned things at some point in time without necessarily knowing them all along. Point being we don't exactly know what he knows or when he learned it, so blaming him for stuff like Dany going nuts is a bit of a stretch. He can't be held responsible for every bad thing that happens, or every bad decision everyone else makes simply because he potentially has the ability to MAYBE know about it in advance. I think it's arguably more dangerous if he were to decide to play god and go that route. That'll probably drive him nuts faster than even Dany. For him, less probably is more.
    And it is fair for you yo say that. It is also fair for others to say he knew all along. It is left to the viewer to decide and given obviois instances of the writers forgetting their own plot, we have reason not to give them the benefit of the doubt.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  3. #7953
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Not giving him a free pass. I asked you who was innocent or not serving the greater good. Jon Arynn was not innocent. He was complicit in the rape and murder of people and he as Hand failed to punish it because the rape and murder were committed by people he was aligned with. So removing someone who violates their duty as upholder of justice can in fact be argued as serving the greater good. Again my argument is that all these people are assholes and murderers. Some are just more likeable assholes and murders than others. You have not put forth a convincing argument to support the idea that Jon Arryn was innocent or that his death did not serve the greater good. I was simply pointing out that LF did not kill Arryn because your response gave the impression he had. He was a conspirator in his murder for sure.

    What happened to Hodor can be said to serve the greater good but it is entirely possible he could have saved Bran while living a normal healthy life. His becoming mentally disabled was not required for him to save Bran. He could have grown up sane and still become great friends with Bran and perhaps even been more useful because Ned was encouraging him to learn fencing. For all we know GoT lost a hero because of Bran's reckless Warging as several people remarked about how strong and great Wyllis could have become. We we got instead was a watered down Hodor instead of perhaps the next great Northern hero.

    I am not blaming Bran for Dany going nuts. I am saying he didn't save anyone from Bran as you asserted. For him to have saved people, he would have had to stop her from going nuts which he did not do. So he saved no one. However, Dany is still responsible for her own actions but it is obvious the circumstances in one's life shapes one's actions.
    Little Finger plotting to murder Arryn makes him a murderer too. Arguing that he was murdered by his wife and not him is where the free pass comes in.

    And if Arryn was murdered out of justice, you could maybe make the arguement that it was done for the greater good. Problem is that doesn't have a damn thing to do with why they did it. So regardless of whether or not some greater good can coincidentally be served by Jon dying (and I would still argue that's debatable), the point is that Little Finger is still a monster. And enough people know it to the point where he will and should be put down.

    And yes, maybe if Bran had better control of his powers Hodor could have lived a better life. Maybe. He didn't know how to properly use his powers and was caught in a life and death situation, where he did his best but a fairly innocent person ended up paying the price for that. It's tragic... but far less of an issue that Little Finger intentionally killing people.

  4. #7954
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    And it is fair for you yo say that. It is also fair for others to say he knew all along. It is left to the viewer to decide and given obviois instances of the writers forgetting their own plot, we have reason not to give them the benefit of the doubt.
    It's fair to say he knew prior to the end of the show ... it's not fair to say he knew all along. Again the fact that he states he could never be a lord tells us at some point he was unaware of how things would end up earlier in the season. We don't exactly know WHEN he discovers the outcome, but he clearly did not know all along.

  5. #7955
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Now, it could be that he also knows that, in doing so, peace will be brought about by his 1000 year reign, but in the meantime, there's a lot of murdered people and one queen who didn't have to go insane if only he had reminded her to look for Euron's fleet, or warned her that Missandei could be plucked out of the sea in the midst of a pitched battle and held for ransom. Basically, there were a lot of ways he could have easily stopped Dany from travelling down the mad queen path, but chose not to so that things would be set up for him to take the throne.
    If Dany was that close to the edge, she would have snapped at some point regardless of Missandei or Rhaegal. Being queen would have been incredibly stressful; hardly anyone in Westeros knows or trusts her and she doesn't know or trust them; and she would face resistance at some point, like every other monarch. You could make the argument that if she hadn't gone kill-crazy at this time, she would have done it further down the road when she would be firmly entrenched in power.

    As soon as she tried to "liberate" people who didn't want to be "liberated" and hail her as a Messiah figure, this would have happened. Just like the French, Russian and Chinese revolutions... "we will liberate you, or we will kill you. Your choice."

  6. #7956
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Again, that was the problem with the vague comment(s) Bran has made. Can I blame him for what happened to Dany? Yes...and no. The writers failed to make it clear just what Bran knew and when.

    So it comes down to two basic possibilities (with shades in between). 1. Bran gets totally random flashes of what is going to happen, such as 'he needs to go to KL to be king' or 'he needs to sit in this courtyard because this is where Arya offs the NK) or, 2. Bran spends a great deal of his time looking at the future and knows the details and acts (or doesn't act) so those details will come to pass, either because that's how things have to be, or because that's how Bran wants them to be.

    I don't think it was ever made clear if Bran can do anything to change the future? Or is it through Bran's actions and/or inactions that cause the future to happen as it should?

    There are a lot of possibilities but no actual canon/hard answers because Bran was written too mysteriously in the show.
    Or, the methods Bran chooses have the best overall outcome. There could be several paths he sees, and chooses the one that has the best outcome for the most people. And, we really don't know how much of the future Bran can see.

  7. #7957
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    If Dany was that close to the edge, she would have snapped at some point regardless of Missandei or Rhaegal. Being queen would have been incredibly stressful; hardly anyone in Westeros knows or trusts her and she doesn't know or trust them; and she would face resistance at some point, like every other monarch. You could make the argument that if she hadn't gone kill-crazy at this time, she would have done it further down the road when she would be firmly entrenched in power.

    As soon as she tried to "liberate" people who didn't want to be "liberated" and hail her as a Messiah figure, this would have happened. Just like the French, Russian and Chinese revolutions... "we will liberate you, or we will kill you. Your choice."
    Well most of the deaths from those revolutions came about from a constantly expanding definition of who the "evil elites" were, and a lot of people who had enthusiastically supported those movements when they were cast as the victims suddenly found themselves labeled as the oppressors and eliminated. And while Dany had sort of a populist agenda going on in Essos, she seems to have completely dropped that when she finally got to Westeros, though it may have made more sense if she had claimed her mission to be liberating the smallfolk from the oppression of the noble houses from the get go. That would have naturally put her in conflict with the other main characters and her Nuremberg speech would have made a bit more sense, since she'd be celebrating the destruction of the decadent bourgeois class in the capital that was draining the wealth from the hard working peasants or whatever, rather than just reclaiming a family title.

  8. #7958
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Little Finger plotting to murder Arryn makes him a murderer too. Arguing that he was murdered by his wife and not him is where the free pass comes in.

    And if Arryn was murdered out of justice, you could maybe make the arguement that it was done for the greater good. Problem is that doesn't have a damn thing to do with why they did it. So regardless of whether or not some greater good can coincidentally be served by Jon dying (and I would still argue that's debatable), the point is that Little Finger is still a monster. And enough people know it to the point where he will and should be put down.

    And yes, maybe if Bran had better control of his powers Hodor could have lived a better life. Maybe. He didn't know how to properly use his powers and was caught in a life and death situation, where he did his best but a fairly innocent person ended up paying the price for that. It's tragic... but far less of an issue that Little Finger intentionally killing people.
    That is not a free pass. That is factual. LF did not murder Arryn. Lyssa did. LF is still guilty for his role in the conspiracy.

    Whether a greater good is served and whether that was the intent are two different things.

    What makes LF any more a monster than Arryn or Robert? Again they were fine with people being raped and children murdered. Who are you comparing to?

    Not really a maybe. It should be obvious that living as Wyllis would be better than living as Hodor. Also not saying it is the same as LF. Saying all these characters are flawed.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  9. #7959
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It's fair to say he knew prior to the end of the show ... it's not fair to say he knew all along. Again the fact that he states he could never be a lord tells us at some point he was unaware of how things would end up earlier in the season. We don't exactly know WHEN he discovers the outcome, but he clearly did not know all along.
    No it is still fair to say as it is an opinion. It is not fair to say it is fact. But we all speculate and give opinions.

    The fact he stated he could never be a lord is meaningless. He could be deceitful or the writers could just have forgotten he said it like they forgot Dany knew about Euron.

    There are any number of scenarios and people are free to speculated based in their interpretation.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  10. #7960
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    If Dany was that close to the edge, she would have snapped at some point regardless of Missandei or Rhaegal. Being queen would have been incredibly stressful; hardly anyone in Westeros knows or trusts her and she doesn't know or trust them; and she would face resistance at some point, like every other monarch. You could make the argument that if she hadn't gone kill-crazy at this time, she would have done it further down the road when she would be firmly entrenched in power.

    As soon as she tried to "liberate" people who didn't want to be "liberated" and hail her as a Messiah figure, this would have happened. Just like the French, Russian and Chinese revolutions... "we will liberate you, or we will kill you. Your choice."
    Maybe China and Russia (Gulags, "re-education", mass starvations with little done to help, etc). But France? Yeah, the Year of Terror, where a bunch of people were executed. But numbers wise, it pales in comparison.

    Maybe the closest comparison would be the Soviets march on Berlin?

  11. #7961
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    That is not a free pass. That is factual. LF did not murder Arryn. Lyssa did. LF is still guilty for his role in the conspiracy.

    Whether a greater good is served and whether that was the intent are two different things.

    What makes LF any more a monster than Arryn or Robert? Again they were fine with people being raped and children murdered. Who are you comparing to?

    Not really a maybe. It should be obvious that living as Wyllis would be better than living as Hodor. Also not saying it is the same as LF. Saying all these characters are flawed.
    That's like saying Cersi didn't murder Missandei. If you conspire to murder someone you are a murderer too.

    You can argue Little Finger is as much of a monster as Robert if you want... again, I wasn't a fan of his either to be honest. In the least he's far more of a monster than Bran, which is at least a part of the reason why they're probably better off with Bran on the throne over Little Finger.

    And sure you can say they are all flawed... you can say every human being is. That's not enough of a reason to argue a guy like Little Finger should be on the throne. Plenty of people far less flawed than him... the one presently sitting on the throne for example.

  12. #7962
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    No it is still fair to say as it is an opinion. It is not fair to say it is fact. But we all speculate and give opinions.

    The fact he stated he could never be a lord is meaningless. He could be deceitful or the writers could just have forgotten he said it like they forgot Dany knew about Euron.

    There are any number of scenarios and people are free to speculated based in their interpretation.
    If you want to ignore what the character actually states in favor of your own head canon that's fine... I just don't agree that's a fair way to discuss the show. Because if the character flat out states he doesn't know about being a lord, there's not a whole lot else the show can do to make that point.

  13. #7963
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    If Dany was that close to the edge, she would have snapped at some point regardless of Missandei or Rhaegal. Being queen would have been incredibly stressful; hardly anyone in Westeros knows or trusts her and she doesn't know or trust them; and she would face resistance at some point, like every other monarch. You could make the argument that if she hadn't gone kill-crazy at this time, she would have done it further down the road when she would be firmly entrenched in power.

    As soon as she tried to "liberate" people who didn't want to be "liberated" and hail her as a Messiah figure, this would have happened. Just like the French, Russian and Chinese revolutions... "we will liberate you, or we will kill you. Your choice."
    Was she close to the edge? Or did a series of events push her to the edge? Open to interpretation.

    You could also make the argument that once she showed mercy and ruled justly then she would have earned their love so when adversity hit she would not get as rattled by it.

    There is a parrallell universe out there where Jon doesnt tell Sansa, Dany doesnt forget about Euron and she just kills Cersei.

    A few key moments can completely change the trajectory of someone's life.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  14. #7964
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    If you want to ignore what the character actually states in favor of your own head canon that's fine... I just don't agree that's a fair way to discuss the show. Because if the character flat out states he doesn't know about being a lord, there's not a whole lot else the show can do to make that point.
    I would normally agree but Dany is flat out told about Euron but the writers say she forgot.

    Yarra flat out asks for and gets independence yet she forgets about it.

    The writers suck so it is fair game to take that into account.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-23-2019 at 11:24 AM.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  15. #7965
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    That's like saying Cersi didn't murder Missandei. If you conspire to murder someone you are a murderer too.

    You can argue Little Finger is as much of a monster as Robert if you want... again, I wasn't a fan of his either to be honest. In the least he's far more of a monster than Bran, which is at least a part of the reason why they're probably better off with Bran on the throne over Little Finger.

    And sure you can say they are all flawed... you can say every human being is. That's not enough of a reason to argue a guy like Little Finger should be on the throne. Plenty of people far less flawed than him... the one presently sitting on the throne for example.
    No because Cersei gave an order to her subordinate. Gregor has no cause to kill her beyond her boss giving the order.

    By contrast Lyssa had her own reasons to kill Jon because she wanted to be with LF. He persuaded her but he is not her boss and in fact she outranks him being the wife of a Lord so it was not an order.

    Again he is still guilty but Lyssa made her own choice and had her own desire to kill in a way Gregor does not.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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