Game of Thrones

[Divine Spark]

I’ve seen plenty of Daenerys Targaryen fans on social media suddenly hating on Dark Phoenix. lmao

[Variant]

There was a time skip so as I said above, I am assuming in the aftermath of the battle they started repairs on the wall but I suppose we don't know how fair along they are. All we know is Sansa said the Northmen are outside the wall. You would think if there was still a huge gap she would have brought them in the city but then again the writers are stupid so who knows. Maybe Sansa didn't want to give them an opportunity to rape people again.

Greyworm gets to dictate because he was named commander of Dany's armies before she died and he is the one holding Jon. So you negotiate with him or he can simply kill Jon which is what he probably should have done from the start rather than wait for the Lords to assemble. With his lover dead not sure you want to gamble on his wanting to live so a suicidal stand where they kill as many soldiers before losing to attrition is not out of the realm of possibility if he simply wants to watch the world burn because Jon killed his queen.

I mean hell if he wanted to he could have simply slaughtered all the Lords there since again Sansa said her people are outside the city. I really am not sure why the Lords trusted that a dude that lost his love and his Queen, is a foreigner and executed prisoners at Dany's request would not just kill them all. They ultimately are lucky Greyworm is reasonable or more precisely the writers chose to make him reasonable in the end.

And who's doing the repair work? I didn't realize the Unsullied are skilled on masonry and stone work. Is it the common folk? Because a lot of them got burned alive, It's funny that almost every scene of kings landing it was like a barren ash covered post apocalyptic world. How many people still alive would stick around at that point.

Again, I found the whole episode (not to mention the whole season and along with the writing) rather ridiculous. And I don't understand what exactly does Greyworm want? Justice for Dany? Okay, he should have just killed Jon outright then. It still mind boggling given what we've seen of him in the last two episodes, why the hell he wouldn't kill Jon. It doesn't make sense why he would hold Jon alive for what? So the westrosi lords can punish him? Half of them are related to the Starks by blood. I just found the writing to be stupid, It's not like I'm trying to defend anyone in that council scene.

[Havok83]

How many years passed between the first episode and the last episode?

about 7 years

[remydat]

And who's doing the repair work? I didn't realize the Unsullied are skilled on masonry and stone work. Is it the common folk? Because a lot of them got burned alive, It's funny that almost every scene of kings landing it was like a barren ash covered post apocalyptic world. How many people still alive would stick around at that point.

Again, I found the whole episode (not to mention the whole season and along with the writing) rather ridiculous. And I don't understand what exactly does Greyworm want? Justice for Dany? Okay, he should have just killed Jon outright then. It still mind boggling given what we've seen of him in the last two episodes, why the hell he wouldn't kill Jon. It doesn't make sense why he would hold Jon alive for what? So the westrosi lords can punish him? Half of them are related to the Starks by blood. I just found the writing to be stupid, It's not like I'm trying to defend anyone in that council scene.

No I assume it would be common folk as the first thing you would fix after a battle would be the walls. But as I said I would agree that if it was just a couple of weeks for the time skip then it wouldn't necessarily be complete but then it is dumb that Sansa would have kept her men outside the city.

Agreed he should have just killed Jon. Let's be honest here and say the only reason he didn't is because the writers wanted him alive. Realistically if Jon confessed, Greyworm probably just kills him right then and there.

Not to mention the council scene is stupid because everyone else has one representative but magically all 3 starks get to show up. Like what the hell for. Should have just been Sansa. Bran and Arya really have no business in a meeting of the rest of the Lords. Nor Samwell really. Of course, the reason for their presence is basically fan service and to make Bran king. So agreed the scene makes no sense really.

[Variant]

If you are saying that only the North and the Unsullied would fight then ok I get that. But while the North is fighting in KL, do you think the Iron Islands sit idle. Theon is dead. Yarra was fine with them attacking the North when the opportunity arose the first time so I see no reason for her to sit idle if the North is weakened by a protracted War in the South. Not really in their nature. So no, I don't think the Iron Islands would just sit neutral or side with the North if war with the Unsullied broke out. They are more akin to pirates and opportunists and Yarra already was promised independence.

In the books it quite clear that Asha (or Yarra, whatever) knows they can never hold the north. She went along with the attack because it was her father's command and she wasn't going go against that. But she has always been of the mentality of creating alliances for the longterm prosperity for her people. In fact she repeatedly makes the suggestion of an alliance with the Northmen in the books. Her attacking the north really doesn’t make sense given her father and uncle’s failed campaigns. And it would be different now considering, Balon took northmen when they weren't expecting it. The North has the Vale army supporting them now.

Dorne you have a stronger case for them remaining neutral. I can see the case for them staying out of it but if they side, I think they still end up on Unsullied side. Also let's be clear, if they won the war, what they would have to gain is King's Landing which is the largest city on the continent. The Unsullied won't want it, I doubt Yarra would as logistically tough for her to keep since the Iron Islands on opposite coast, and Bran isn't going to give it up. By contrast Sea of Dorne is on the same coast and would provide a midway point between Iron Island and Kings Landing via sea route. The other main Kingdom on that coast between Dorne and KL is Stormlands which Gendry owes his Lordship over to Dany. So that would be the play for Dorne. They would be able to pretty much control sea trade on the Eastern Coast with King Landing, Yarra's fleets, and a friendly Stormlands. They could also potentially call on what is left of Dany's forces on Essos of Daario feels like getting some revenge.

Actually for Dorne you can make a stronger case supporting Jon. Dorne just wants a Targaryen on the throne. With Dany dead, what exactly is their choice? They don’t know Greyworm. Him and the Unsullied are essentially a foreign mercenary army on the continent. Besides in one of the episodes wasn't Varys writing a letter to them, telling them about Jon’s lineage and I assume Dany’s mental state. As for Gendry, I don’t see Gendry being on the opposite side of Arya’s family considering he's in love with her. So Book or Television wise I just don’t see that happening. Whether he owes his lordship to Dany is irrelevant since she’s dead.

[remydat]

Not suggesting she wants to hold the North. I am suggesting if the North is left unattended because they are in King Landing, it would be a good opportunity for them to raid the North. In the TV show she wants Independence and is not as lovey dovey with the North as in the books.

Didn't come up at the meeting so Dorne doesn't know Jon is a Targ as you would think that would be referenced. Their choice with Dany dead is independence and King's Landing. And no Gendry would not side with them. I am saying he would remain neutral but after the war if Dorne were to capture King's Landing, he would not be hostile to them in my view given he owes his title to Dany. Let's break it down.

Crownlands - In control of Unsullied and Dothraki with Dorne gaining possession if they side with the Greyworm and they are victorious.

Dorne - Staunchly independent and suffered at the hands of Cersei and it would be poetic justice that after holding out the longest against the Targs, they gain control of the Capital city founded by Targ dynasty.

Iron Island - Pretty much pirates that want Independence and if the North leaves their lands unattended, the raping and pillaging will begin.

The Rock - Ostensibly under Tyrion's control but he has no armies as they were killed defending Cersei so pretty much a non factor.

The Reach - Ostensibly under control of Bronn but doubtful he can raise an army from them and probably would be more concerned with securing his power.

Stormlands - Ostensibly under Gendry's control due to Dany so doubt he gets involved and like Bronn needs to secure his hold on newly granted lands.

North - Obviously will fight for Sansa but how much they can commit to taking King's Landing is in doubt given Iron Islands can harrass their rear.

Vale - Given the relationship between Sansa and Vale fostered by LF and history between Starks and Arryn, I see them siding with her.

Riverlands - Obviously controlled by Sansa's Uncle so likely to side with her but how much support he can provide is in doubt as dude is a bit of a bitch.

If that is how it plays out then I would lean towards the Greyworm side winning with Dorne ultimately gaining the crownlands for their trouble.

[Variant]

Not suggesting she wants to hold the North. I am suggesting if the North is left unattended because they are in King Landing, it would be a good opportunity for them to raid the North. In the TV show she wants Independence and is not as lovey dovey with the North as in the books.

I just don’t see that being a long-term winning strategy for her or Iron isles, just as it wasn’t for her father and uncle. They’ve had numerous rebellions and they’ve all failed. In the end it comes down to man-power, in a long sustained campaign they won’t win against combined westrosi houses – that much is very clear.

Didn't come up at the meeting so Dorne doesn't know Jon is a Targ as you would think that would be referenced. Their choice with Dany dead is independence and King's Landing. And no Gendry would not side with them. I am saying he would remain neutral but after the war if Dorne were to capture King's Landing, he would not be hostile to them in my view given he owes his title to Dany. Let's break it down.

First of all the Dorne guy hardly spoke at all. We have no idea who he is. I don’t want to beat on a dead horse on how dumb that council scene is. Second of all, while I agree their choice would be independence if Jon was dead or refused the crown. Why on earth would Dorne want to capture King’s landing? (or what’s left of it anyway) What exactly would they be fighting for at this point with Dany dead? If they want the crown for themselves, Okay. But whether the Baratheons, The Reach, or the Lannisters (all of which Dorne has a long history of hostitlity with) would accept them is very doubtful.

Crownlands - In control of Unsullied and Dothraki with Dorne gaining possession if they side with the Greyworm and they are victorious.

Dorne - Staunchly independent and suffered at the hands of Cersei and it would be poetic justice that after holding out the longest against the Targs, they gain control of the Capital city founded by Targ dynasty.

We'll just agree to disagree. The Unsullied and Dothraki no longer have a dragon. So already they lost their biggest advantage. I'm not saying they're not a force to be reckon with. But they are foreigners with a finite number of troops surrounded by a population that reviles them for what they did in King's landing. They'll win battles, but they're not going to win the war. As for Dorne - what are they fighting for exactly? You're saying Dorne wants to go independent (which I would agree with) but they also want king’s landing? I’m sorry but I don’t understand that reasoning. If everyone goes independent, what's the function of King’s Landing at that point. I assume it’ll become like a neutral city state. But then again a lot of its funding comes from the crown which collects taxes from all the houses. If everyone goes independent, a lot of that funding would dry up.

Dorne getting control of Kings Landing is entirely dependent on whether the other houses would accept that. Dorne would certainly never be able to hold it if other houses decide to besiege the city. The city has been besieged and starved before, and they get most of their food from the Reach/Highgarden.

Iron Island - Pretty much pirates that want Independence and if the North leaves their lands unattended, the raping and pillaging will begin.

This is a not a sustainable situation. If you’re going to raiding and pillaging another land/kingdom that is an act of war. Their strength has always been at sea, but they have a limited number of men and resources. The Ironmen badly need land, and the only sustainable way they would be able to hold it is through an alliance with the Great Houses.

The Rock - Ostensibly under Tyrion's control but he has no armies as they were killed defending Cersei so pretty much a non factor.

There’s a lot of people in the west. It is the second largest population in the seven kingdoms behind the Reach. Cersei’s army in Kings Landing is gone, it doesn’t mean the Lannisters and their bannerman can’t raise and train more men.

[remydat]

1. I said raid. I did not say long sustained war. North can't take KL and be in Winterfell at same time. Their allies would be Dorne. They been raiding for ages as you noted several failed rebellions. Dont have to win as the war is in the South at KL. Just need to rape and pillage when Northmen go South.

2. Those other places dont have to accept Dorne. They are not trying to rule 7 Kingdoms. Just capture the largest city and add it to Dorne. At that point 7 Kingdoms just all become independent or Bran rules from Winterfell a fractured Kingdom. No one has any loyalty or reason to follow Bran especially if he loses KL.

3. Think you missed the Northmen raping and pillaging along with Dothraki. North is now independent so they are no less foreigners who already raped and murdered civilians in KL. Of all combatants it was Unsullied who did not debase themselves raping probably because they lack penises. So not sure why you think the people care about the rapists from the North who are dont want to be a part of 7 Kingdoms.

4. It is the largest city and has a harbor for sea trade. As long as Dorne and Iron Islands control seas they cant be starved as can be supplied via blackwater bay.

5. It is illogical to presume Cersei was in fight for survival and left soldiers behind. The Rock has people not soldiers. They would be non factors in any conflict. Not even clear anyone would want to side with now Indepedent North who just finished taking part in massacre and rape of KL and by extension Lannister armies.

[TriggerWarning]

In all the fighting over the plot of the last season I don't know if this got mentioned by GRRM has now given a deadline of late 2020 for Winds of Winter to finished.

Personally, I don't think we will ever see WoW let alone Dream of Spring unless its by another author, most likely Daniel Abraham or Ty Franck (collectively known as James S.A. Corey). Martin has both lost interest and has been given a massive case of writer's block by the TV show so I doubt he'll ever finish, especially since there is little incentive for him to now.

[Variant]

1. I said raid. I did not say long sustained war. North can't take KL and be in Winterfell at same time. Their allies would be Dorne. They been raiding for ages as you noted several failed rebellions. Dont have to win as the war is in the South at KL. Just need to rape and pillage when Northmen go South.

Why would Dorne and the Ironborn be allies? There's nothing to suggest that they would be. Even in your what-if scenario - The Dorne are supposedly going to be busy taking king's landing? How does that help the Iron isles in their present predicament. As for the Iron fleet, didn't most of their ships get destroyed in battle with Euron? I just don't see the long term strategy here.

2. Those other places dont have to accept Dorne. They are not trying to rule 7 Kingdoms. Just capture the largest city and add it to Dorne. At that point 7 Kingdoms just all become independent or Bran rules from Winterfell a fractured Kingdom. No one has any loyalty or reason to follow Bran especially if he loses KL.

So Dorne is going to try to capture a city far away from the their own lands, surrounded by potential hostile houses. Again, we'll just agree to disagree here. I don't understand that reasoning.

3. Think you missed the Northmen raping and pillaging along with Dothraki. North is now independent so they are no less foreigners who already raped and murdered civilians in KL. Of all combatants it was Unsullied who did not debase themselves raping probably because they lack penises. So not sure why you think the people care about the rapists from the North who are dont want to be a part of 7 Kingdoms.

First of all, I never said people should care about rapists in the north. Straw-maning is not helping your argument. Yes all armies of the seven kingdoms have a history of raping and pillaging. I don't recall any of them having a history of burning down civilians after a city surrendered. The Unsullied are not fucking angels here just because they can't rape - they slaughtered people who surrendered. Again, I don't see how the population of westeros wouldn't be hostile to them after what happened in King's Landing. As for their feeling toward the northmen, considering the north doesn't want to rule over them it's kind of irrelevant.

4. It is the largest city and has a harbor for sea trade. As long as Dorne and Iron Islands control seas they cant be starved as can be supplied via blackwater bay.

Well, it's a half-burned city that would require enormous funds to rebuild. Oh, it's a port city. It certainly has value. Which is why I don't see how the other Houses would be okay if Dorne just wanted to take it. In an independent scenario I can see it being a neutral city state, not under the authority of any one house, and everyone chipping in to rebuild it. Most of the Iron fleet is destroyed, and Dorne has never been a naval power.

5. It is illogical to presume Cersei was in fight for survival and left soldiers behind. The Rock has people not soldiers. They would be non factors in any conflict. Not even clear anyone would want to side with now Indepedent North who just finished taking part in massacre and rape of KL and by extension Lannister armies.

Westerlands have a large population. People can be trained. And no, it's not like every single fighting man in the westerlands was at Kings Landing, that's just silly. You say "why would anyone want to side with independent North"? Well the Starks, the Arryns and the Tully's all have blood relations, so their alliance is a foregone conclusion. The better questions is why the hell would anyone want to side with an army of foreigners who's Mad queen is dead? Who overwhelmingly bares responsibility for the burning of the capitol? We can go over these what-if scenarios all day. But this is getting silly. D&D wrote their own story, and that's that.

[XPac]

And who's doing the repair work? I didn't realize the Unsullied are skilled on masonry and stone work. Is it the common folk? Because a lot of them got burned alive, It's funny that almost every scene of kings landing it was like a barren ash covered post apocalyptic world. How many people still alive would stick around at that point.

Again, I found the whole episode (not to mention the whole season and along with the writing) rather ridiculous. And I don't understand what exactly does Greyworm want? Justice for Dany? Okay, he should have just killed Jon outright then. It still mind boggling given what we've seen of him in the last two episodes, why the hell he wouldn't kill Jon. It doesn't make sense why he would hold Jon alive for what? So the westrosi lords can punish him? Half of them are related to the Starks by blood. I just found the writing to be stupid, It's not like I'm trying to defend anyone in that council scene.

I think Grey Worm was smart enough to realize that killing Jon would have essentially guranteed a war with the North. And while he may not fear the idea, he likely doesn't think it would be worth it (especally if it means potentially dealing with Arya and Bran... Starks would be pretty scary if they weren't such honorable people). He probably stuck around out of a sense of duty, and seemed quite willing to leave all this behind once everything was resolved. Doing anything more than he did would hurt more than it would help.

[Theleviathan]

In all the fighting over the plot of the last season I don't know if this got mentioned by GRRM has now given a deadline of late 2020 for Winds of Winter to finished.

Personally, I don't think we will ever see WoW let alone Dream of Spring unless its by another author, most likely Daniel Abraham or Ty Franck (collectively known as James S.A. Corey). Martin has both lost interest and has been given a massive case of writer's block by the TV show so I doubt he'll ever finish, especially since there is little incentive for him to now.

I don't believe those two books will be enough.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

Lol not really I just don't think they were that great of a army.

Really? Fighting the army of the dead with laser precision formations, and went back out to escorts the red woman with ice in their vein. Met the first wave if the dead army and DIDN'T FLINCH???!!!

[choptop]

Really? Fighting the army of the dead with laser precision formations, and went back out to escorts the red woman with ice in their vein. Met the first wave if the dead army and DIDN'T FLINCH???!!!

They just didn't seem to be all that as far as fighters go.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

I think Grey Worm was smart enough to realize that killing Jon would have essentially guranteed a war with the North. And while he may not fear the idea, he likely doesn't think it would be worth it (especally if it means potentially dealing with Arya and Bran... Starks would be pretty scary if they weren't such honorable people). He probably stuck around out of a sense of duty, and seemed quite willing to leave all this behind once everything was resolved. Doing anything more than he did would hurt more than it would help.

definitely doesn't explain Drogon not killing him. I personally thought that was a copout. Jon realistically should be dead.