Game of Thrones

[charliehustle415]

Hi all,

I am resurrecting this thread like a Red Priest because after being cajoled by my friends I finally binged GOT.

Now some caveat I am not a big fan of fantasy but I will watch it if I find it entertaining.

I really loved the entire series, I had a very cursory knowledge of the series I just knew that it was very violent and no one was safe and the sex was borderline pornographic.

So I went in knowing that this is gonna be some kind of edgelord fantasy i.e. "this ain't your momma's fantasy"

Yes it was definitely that, but overall I really enjoyed it even though I got lost a lot there were so many names and places that it was very hard to keep track of everyone.

I also knew that people hated the final seasons, but I personally didn't understand what the issue was? We finally got our Whitewalker battle after 7 seasons of blue balls and Dany finally made moves on Westeros.

Also, a lot of the story was quite simple I mean ultimately the story was about zombies and how people were so involved in their own **** that no one cared.

It was a great ride especially when you binge it, I cannot imagine how people waited years upon years for it to conclude because there is no way I would be able to retain all that knowledge.

Now I know a lot of people have strong opinions so don't burn me at the stake (unless you're a hot Red Priestess) because I am the most casual viewer, but I would love to read your overall view on the series positive or negative.

I'm really curious on the series and may watch the new series that's coming out.

PS: my favorite character was Theon and the Ironborn people (the dead may never die [so cool]), man I felt so bad for him and how he was torn between two worlds but he had a dope death.

[AndrewCrossett]

I thought the early seasons were probably the best action-adventure TV I've ever seen. The later seasons (after they ran out of book material) were still good, and as for the end... I liked parts of it and disliked other parts.

I loved Arya vs. the Night King, and I liked the final Hound vs. Mountain battle. (I always thought the whole "Cleganebowl" thing was overhyped). I liked the outcome of Sansa's story... her revenge on Ramsay and becoming Queen in the North.

I was neutral on Danaerys's fate. Jon killing her was not unreasonable, considering, but her sudden heel turn was nowhere near adequately foreshadowed or explained.

Hated Euron and his magical fleet and his E-Z-Kil dragon gun.

Disliked the fate of Jamie and Cersei. I guess it was supposed to be poetic justice or something, but... bleah.

I thought Bran becoming king as a pretty lame ass-pull. And Tyrion, after being such a central character, just kind of faded into "what do we do with him?" territory.

Jon heading north to lead the remnants of the wildlings was OK, and Arya heading off to become a world explorer was fine. Could be a good sequel series in there.

My favorite character was Arya. Liked the Hound, too. They made a good double act.

I did not let my disappointments with the final season ruin my overall enjoyment of the series. I will watch any spinoffs that come out... at least, I'll give them a chance.

[charliehustle415]

I thought the early seasons were probably the best action-adventure TV I've ever seen. The later seasons (after they ran out of book material) were still good, and as for the end... I liked parts of it and disliked other parts.

I loved Arya vs. the Night King, and I liked the final Hound vs. Mountain battle. (I always thought the whole "Cleganebowl" thing was overhyped). I liked the outcome of Sansa's story... her revenge on Ramsay and becoming Queen in the North.

I was neutral on Danaerys's fate. Jon killing her was not unreasonable, considering, but her sudden heel turn was nowhere near adequately foreshadowed or explained.

Hated Euron and his magical fleet and his E-Z-Kil dragon gun.

Disliked the fate of Jamie and Cersei. I guess it was supposed to be poetic justice or something, but... bleah.

I thought Bran becoming king as a pretty lame ass-pull. And Tyrion, after being such a central character, just kind of faded into "what do we do with him?" territory.

Jon heading north to lead the remnants of the wildlings was OK, and Arya heading off to become a world explorer was fine. Could be a good sequel series in there.

My favorite character was Arya. Liked the Hound, too. They made a good double act.

I did not let my disappointments with the final season ruin my overall enjoyment of the series. I will watch any spinoffs that come out... at least, I'll give them a chance.

What is "Cleganebowl"?

It's interesting not being on the hypetrain and watching it on my own because I had no expectations or fan theories, and I really enjoyed it.

I learned with LOST the hard way to never get invested in tv shows because of how disappointed I was with that.

[Jackalope89]

What is "Cleganebowl"?

It's interesting not being on the hypetrain and watching it on my own because I had no expectations or fan theories, and I really enjoyed it.

I learned with LOST the hard way to never get invested in tv shows because of how disappointed I was with that.

A lot of people became (over)hyped with the possible foreshadowed fight of the Clegane brothers.

But you lucked out, you didn't have to sit through literal years of the toxic shippers and way out there plot/conspiracy people.

[charliehustle415]

A lot of people became (over)hyped with the possible foreshadowed fight of the Clegane brothers.

But you lucked out, you didn't have to sit through literal years of the toxic shippers and way out there plot/conspiracy people.

Yeah this is what I figured with just a cursory look online.

When you binge the show you can really see the movie like structure of the entire series.

The first 3 seasons were just putting all the pieces in place the middle 3 were living in the world and the final 2 was the conclusion.

So I was pretty confused when people wanted an entire season on the long night. What did people want? What can be said for an entire 10 episodes especially with zombies? From the very beginning the show was not interested in giving us answers for the various prophesies and mythologies. So color me surprised when people were demanding it.

I mean so much happens off screen from the very beginning, so where was this expectation coming from?

[Jackalope89]

Yeah this is what I figured with just a cursory look online.

When you binge the show you can really see the movie like structure of the entire series.

The first 3 seasons were just putting all the pieces in place the middle 3 were living in the world and the final 2 was the conclusion.

So I was pretty confused when people wanted an entire season on the long night. What did people want? What can be said for an entire 10 episodes especially with zombies? From the very beginning the show was not interested in giving us answers for the various prophesies and mythologies. So color me surprised when people were demanding it.

I mean so much happens off screen from the very beginning, so where was this expectation coming from?

The Long Night... That honestly could and should have been a lot better than what it was. Even just from a tactical standpoint, it was dumb on many levels. Story wise, while it did go an unexpected route, being foreshadowed from the very first episode, that's not exactly the best thing to always do.

[charliehustle415]

The Long Night... That honestly could and should have been a lot better than what it was. Even just from a tactical standpoint, it was dumb on many levels. Story wise, while it did go an unexpected route, being foreshadowed from the very first episode, that's not exactly the best thing to always do.

"tactical" do you mean how they defended Winterfell? If so, I agree; however, they never experienced fighting the undead and I assumed they treated them like your normal human army not realizing what the undead are capable of.

I would rather have the showrunners stick to their guns then just make it up as they like LOST, the dagger, Bran, Arya all of that was basically predestined from the very beginning and if Jaimie didn't push Bran out the window and Littlefinger didn't send the assassin then the world would have been conquered by the zombies.

Also a question if the Night King took over Westeros then Essos would be fine right? So in the would there would be a continent of undead, I would love to read a story of that "What If"

[AndrewCrossett]

The White Walkers would have found a way to cross the sea sooner or later.

I'm not sure if the WW were in any way constrained by temperature, and whether they could have conquered as far south as Dorne. The wights probably could have, at any rate. And if Westeros had fallen entirely to the Night King, there would have been massive crusades by the powers of Essos to defeat him... all that land just waiting to be colonized, with the original population wiped out.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

Don't like re-litigating the series personally, I do prefer the first 4 seasons. Season 6 is Overrated just because it was better than 5. Seasons 4 underrated. And I didn't care about the rest frankly speaking. I also thought the fantasy elements were mostly just window dressing. The complaints about the sex and nudity was also kinda overblown. True Blood and Spartacus had way more sex and nudity imo. I also thought the political intrigue got long in the tooth by season 7. Overall it was my favorite TV show until it **** the bed. I hardly even think about it anymore.

[charliehustle415]

The White Walkers would have found a way to cross the sea sooner or later.

I'm not sure if the WW were in any way constrained by temperature, and whether they could have conquered as far south as Dorne. The wights probably could have, at any rate. And if Westeros had fallen entirely to the Night King, there would have been massive crusades by the powers of Essos to defeat him... all that land just waiting to be colonized, with the original population wiped out.

that's a real cool concept

Don't like re-litigating the series personally, I do prefer the first 4 seasons. Season 6 is Overrated just because it was better than 5. Seasons 4 underrated. And I didn't care about the rest frankly speaking. I also thought the fantasy elements were mostly just window dressing. The complaints about the sex and nudity was also kinda overblown. True Blood and Spartacus had way more sex and nudity imo. I also thought the political intrigue got long in the tooth by season 7. Overall it was my favorite TV show until it **** the bed. I hardly even think about it anymore.

i hear ya not trying to have you relitigate, i'm just super late to the game and i was just curious what people on these boards thought of it since this is the only online social thing i interact with.

i feel the same way as you that political intrigue can only take you so far, so i was happy that we finally got action.

yeah about the sex stuff, before i saw the show that's all i would hear about, especially the sexual violence which to be fair was pretty intense

[godisawesome]

I tend to feel the greatest flaw of the final season was simply that it was generally subpar on most of its climaxes and buildup compared to what came before - which honestly is more a thing of details and pacing than concept on the part of the show runners - and that simply took the wind out of its sails.

Pretty much everyone’s greatest highlight comes before Season 8. Pretty much all the smartest writing and execution of plot twists comes before Season 8. Pretty much all the most quotable lines come before Season 8. Pretty much all the best battle scenes take place before Season 8. Quite simply, the final season, while still full of some spectacle, intrigue, and twists, just didn’t have SPECTACLE!, INTRIGUE!, TWISTS! the way the rest of the series did, when the finale is arguably the time for all of that.

And it really was little details and pacing that caused many of the TV watchers to feel disappointed.

Like, considering how subtly and sneakily the Red Wedding was set-up, Mad Queen Dany seems rote and dull.

Considering how good Blackwater, Watchers On The Wall, and Battle Of The Bastards were as action set pieces, the Long Night was just kind of meh, hard to see, and unambitious.

Considering how deliciously loathsome and terrifyingly but justifiably effective Ramsay was as a human monster, Euron Greyjoy was a bit rote and bland, especially in how his effectiveness seemed to wax and wane entirely based off of the “path of least resistance” for the writers.

Considering how formidable and cunning Cersei had been earlier, how complex Jamie had been before, how formidable Tyrion had been before, they were all a bit dumber, a bit less complex, and a bit more background than they were before. Considering that Sansa was being built towards being Littlefinger’s successor, Jon was being built up as the action star of an action star’s show, the last season saw neither be particularly impressive at either.

Considering the Night King was supposed to be the villain to end all villains, he kind of just rolled in and rolled out over the weekend compared to Tywin’s four season long showing and Ramsay’s season-long rampage before his fall.

To be honest, Arya and Sandor maybe got the best turnout of everyone, since her killing the Night King was better done than most things and since Cleganebowl wasn’t bad… but then we didn’t get as much of them as people wanted.

It’s not as bad as, say, The Last Jedi; the last season of Game of Thrones actually has good concepts for its story, instead of poisonous and toxic ideas like TLJ does. But it does suffer from just not me arguing up to what came before like TLJ does.

[charliehustle415]

Considering the Night King was supposed to be the villain to end all villains, he kind of just rolled in and rolled out over the weekend compared to Tywin’s four season long showing and Ramsay’s season-long rampage before his fall.

I was wondering what if they flipped it, they first defeated Cersei and then had the Long Night Battle, I think it would have ended with more of a punch.

The North defeats the Walkers and then Dany turns on them because they wouldn't bend the knee, Dany burns down Winterfell, and then Jon has to kill Dany.

That'd be cool.

[godisawesome]

I was wondering what if they flipped it, they first defeated Cersei and then had the Long Night Battle, I think it would have ended with more of a punch.

The North defeats the Walkers and then Dany turns on them because they wouldn't bend the knee, Dany burns down Winterfell, and then Jon has to kill Dany.

That'd be cool.

That could work… but I think the key thing again is how they handled the execution in the details and pacing. The first 3/4s of Game Of Thrones have a definite advantage in execution over the last 1/4, and it’s maybe the best evidence that the show runners did better when they had details from Martin and could freestyle further there, and struggled more when they had to get the details themselves - and struggled when they also chose to have fewer episodes at their disposal for this.

For instance, I think one way they could have improved the Long Night battle would have been to have it so Jon has to slay the undead dragon so Arya can get through. Or maybe it’s a two-parter battle where the first episode is a defense-in-depth battle outside Winterfell against a few White Walker generals that the heroes seem to win, only for the second wave led by the Night King and his dragon to herald a more chaotic and vicious second act. Or maybe there just isn’t a massive blizzard blocking the screen…

Or with Dany’s breakdown as the final villain goes smarter - like, instead of her just deciding to burn Kingslanding because that’s what the script says, her other dragon survives to that fight and dies after she’s stopped her attack at the ringing of the bells, triggering her rampage in waht seems initially justified, and then just have the terror of her actions be more subtly conveyed, so that instead of it being “Mad Queen Dany,” it’s more “Any Absolute Monarch With A Superweapon Is A Supervillain, Alright?” And maybe Tyrion has to maneuver the court around Dany so that her highest ranking bloodrider goes away for a while, or to get Dany to see Jon privately. And Jon’s still mulling the decision over in a subtle, Season 1/2-esque conversation that ends with Dany tragically condemning herself by refusing to accept responsibility for the destruction she caused and accepting she will do so again over the Iron Islands and the North.

…Okay, from a different POV of mine, as a book reader…

…Maybe they could have had Jamie go to Kingslanding because he knows Cersei will somehow escape, and has determined that she must die before carrying the war to the Westerlands, but wanting to give her a quick death - so he kills her like the prophecy in the books suggests and she fatally stabs him, so they die together, just to ramp up the tragedy and maintain his complexity.

[charliehustle415]

Or with Dany’s breakdown as the final villain goes smarter - like, instead of her just deciding to burn Kingslanding because that’s what the script says...

I always thought that Dany being crazy was telegraphed from the beginning from her abusive brother, being sold off, death of husband, conquering major city states, destroying said city states idols, crucifying people, and wanting to kill dissidents but only being stopped by her advisors (mainly Jorah).

Once Jorah was killed the reins were off on her power and with everyone in her retinue dead save for Grey Worm whose gonna stop her or question her because it ain't gonna be Grey Worm.

[godisawesome]

I always thought that Dany being crazy was telegraphed from the beginning from her abusive brother, being sold off, death of husband, conquering major city states, destroying said city states idols, crucifying people, and wanting to kill dissidents but only being stopped by her advisors (mainly Jorah).

Once Jorah was killed the reins were off on her power and with everyone in her retinue dead save for Grey Worm whose gonna stop her or question her because it ain't gonna be Grey Worm.

And I think the reasons why a lot of people didn’t buy that was because Arya, Jon, Sandor, and Sansa also go through that level of trauma and frequently also display severe ruthlessness towards people who usually deserve it… but don't always. Arya commits a familicide that’s somewhere in the dozens, at minimum, for instance, and some of those Freys had to be uninvolved in the Red Wedding. And a big part of the problem is that it’s pretty much impossible to sell brutality towards a massive, exaggerated slave state as madness to most modern audience - with good reason. Most people are going to take that as not just totally justified, but laudable; and adding to the issue, the show, like the books, makes a strong argument the area will still be better off without the slave masters (which might be something that also ties into trying to keep things secret.)

I also think Emilia Clarke was very much playing Dany with the same “heroic” fervor that the other hero actors had, likely because (again) her character’s fate was as hidden from her as anyone else.

I do think the concept works for most people, but I think the details and execution again killed the impact with the wider audience - a lot of people I listened to in podcasts and elsewhere were *in* on Dany going nuts, but still found the actual portrayal pretty bad because of how little dramatic resonance it had and how heavy handed and inelegant it was while the show was still blatantly playing favorites elsewhere.