Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Agent of Spyral - Appreciation

[Rac7d*]

It is the same with Darkseid and Superman. Darkseid is sort of more of a JL villain, but he is usually positioned in a way where he kind of works as a Superman villain as well. Deathstroke as a villain probably has more history with Dick than any other villain, and Nightwing and Deathstroke are the two most successful things to come from the NTT run too, but DC has no interest in using Deathstroke as anything close to a Nightwing villain. They would much rather use him as a Batman villain first because they think that is more valuable.

And that right there is the key problem. DC thinks that Deathstroke is too valuable to be used for Nightwing or that Nightwing isn't a big enough character to be worthy of Deathstroke. That mindset will forever prevent Dick from ever getting a proper arch villain because it already puts a limit on what you can do with him.

I personally don't think that it is possible to create a new arch villain with a new character for Dick who has been around for nearly 80 years now. As much as someone might like Raptor or Judge no one is going to look at them as being the de facto villain for Nightwing. All the main villains for big DC heroes have been around from the start of those hero's career or for decades and decades. Unless we get a genre defining Nightwing run that completely changes the way people look at Nightwing DC is just going to continue to use Blockbuster because people still look at that Dixon run as being the go to Nightwing run even though it has a lot of problems. There just has never been anything else to replace it in people's minds, so it is always the fallback.

can you name any new villains who have surfaced in the last 6 years from anyone to gain notoriety? I cant and all teh exisitng one who gain any momentum are turned into anti heroes

[Ascended]

Dick SHOULD be able to challenge Slade a bit on his own. Slade had trouble killing Dick's generation of Titans when they were still teens, and even commented himself that Dick was the most difficult to capture in Judas Contract. A more experienced, more adult Dick should be able to stand up to Slade even better.

This is something DC often seems to forget, and I think it's a big part of what is holding the Titans generation back, both as solo acts and as a group.

These are people who had years of heroic experience before they were old enough to vote. Before they were old enough to drink they were holding off demon lords, standing up to the frigging Justice League, and stopping alien invasions.

Years have passed since that point. Now these are people who are physically in their primes, have nearly as much experience as their mentors, and have saved the world themselves on more than one occasion.

And you want to tell me that they're no more effective now than they were back then? That doesn't track.

I mean, Cyborg has a Mother Box for a heart and should basically be considered a new demi-New God (a NuGod?). Wally killed the Anti-Monitor and did it at such speed even Kal-L didn't see him. Nightwing has fought some of the most insidious secret societies around, and successfully infiltrated and dismantled one of them. We are far beyond the point where the Fearsome Five are a threat.

And if the old villains like the Five have also grown and become better? We need to see that. Until the NTT generation start fighting the kind of threats you'd expect from people as skilled and experienced as they are, all they'll be are the 25 year olds who still show up at high school parties. And no one likes that guy.

[Restingvoice]

Oh, we're doing this again. The Dick has been not Respected Enough Dance. I agree, but I'm also already bored of it.

So I'm just gonna use this chance to say what I've been thinking about Deathstroke.
I don't know why people think Deathstroke is so awesome, because from what I heard he can't even beat Teen Titans.
A lot of his feats like beating Superman, Wonder Woman, Justice League, all sounds like the same thing they like to do to Batman. Overpowering him because people think he's cool which is often contested. So to me he's like the Batman of villains. The Batgod of villains. Godstroke.
It's one thing if he actually killed some of those heroes like Doomsday or Joker did, but as far as I know, he never did, so I'm not impressed.

[yash]

Oh, we're doing this again.
I'm just gonna use this chance to say what I've been thinking.
I don't know why people like Deathstroke so much besides he looks or acts cool, because from what I heard he can't even beat Teen Titans.
A lot of his feats like beating Superman, Wonder Woman, Justice League, all sounds like the same thing they like to do to Batman. Overpowering him because people think he's cool which is often contested. So to me he's like the Batman of villains. The Batgod of villains. Godstroke.
It's one thing if he actually killed some of those heroes like Doomsday or Joker did, but as far as I know, he never did, so I'm not impressed.

deathstroke has been nerfed a lot in the last decade, the guy had beaten green lantern(kyle) and hit flash of all people, unless it's a team effort batman should not be beating slade as easily as he did in slade's own book, hell the likes of jason should not even be touching him but that is what is happening

[Armor of God]

Oh, we're doing this again. The Dick has been not Respected Enough Dance. I agree, but I'm also already bored of it.

So I'm just gonna use this chance to say what I've been thinking about Deathstroke.
I don't know why people think Deathstroke is so awesome, because from what I heard he can't even beat Teen Titans.
A lot of his feats like beating Superman, Wonder Woman, Justice League, all sounds like the same thing they like to do to Batman. Overpowering him because people think he's cool which is often contested. So to me he's like the Batman of villains. The Batgod of villains. Godstroke.
It's one thing if he actually killed some of those heroes like Doomsday or Joker did, but as far as I know, he never did, so I'm not impressed.

He's killed more named characters than Joker and Doomsday combined. Atom and Phantom Lady for starters.

[Restingvoice]

He's killed more named characters than Joker and Doomsday combined. Atom and Phantom Lady for starters.

Ah ok. Well deserved then.

[nhienphan2808]

And that right there is the key problem. DC thinks that Deathstroke is too valuable to be used for Nightwing or that Nightwing isn't a big enough character to be worthy of Deathstroke. That mindset will forever prevent Dick from ever getting a proper arch villain because it already puts a limit on what you can do with him.

i think this is the case with his writers too. Mark Waid wanted to write the NW solo back in the 90s but they said he was "too good" for him. Waid even called Dick and Kory husband and wife in his Flash run without knowing the decision to jerk pull him back to the Batbooks.

[Aahz]

Slades Powerlevel has always been quite inconsistent. Pre flashpoint he beat the entire Justice league, but got in an other book beaten by Batman alone.

But with the Powers and Skill he is supposed to have, I don't think that any normal human should be able to take him down (including characters like Lady Shiva).

[WhipWhirlwind]

i think this is the case with his writers too. Mark Waid wanted to write the NW solo back in the 90s but they said he was "too good" for him. Waid even called Dick and Kory husband and wife in his Flash run without knowing the decision to jerk pull him back to the Batbooks.

I will never forgive DC for not letting Waid write Nightwing. Marvel clearly knew it'd be a hit, which is why they let him basically do it for Daredevil.

[Ascended]

But with the Powers and Skill he is supposed to have, I don't think that any normal human should be able to take him down (including characters like Lady Shiva).

I think the only normal humans who should be able to give Slade a real fight are Shiva and Cass Cain. In a straight up fight, no one else should even come close. Batman, if he has to fight Slade, should have to prep for that fight and dump millions into one-time gadgets that'll only slow Slade down.

I suppose Azreal, if he's deep in the System, should give Slade a solid challenge, but at that point Jean Paul isn't really a normal human, he's a low-end meta just like Slade is.

[Ascended]

Oh, we're doing this again. The Dick has been not Respected Enough Dance. I agree, but I'm also already bored of it.

Well....I'd say this is more about not letting characters benefit from their experience and sticking them in a mode they've outgrown, but close enough.

But that's an issue across the Big 2, not just the NTT. I mean, after over a decade of experience you wouldn't think that Metallo or Parasite could pose much of a threat to Superman anymore, but they still do.

[Aioros22]

Slade never had any real issues taking on the Titans solo under Wolfman. Compared to him, they were toodlers with little experience.

[dropkickjake]

I think that Dick has gotten some pretty solid villains in the past 6 or seven years, whether he has a true "nemesis" or not. Most of the rogues were as Batman or Agent 37, but it is starting to seem like they are going to become Dick's villains. Professor Pyg, Flamingo, Mr Minos, and Raptor all come to mind as villains memorable enough to make returns in the series. They all also play off of aspects of Dick's character (showman, friend to every hero, et c.).

Lack of consistency is always the problem with Dick. it doesn't look like we get to hang on to Vegas-haven in the new run, which is quite the bummer. There are plenty of characters worth keeping, IMO. Its good to hear that Flamingo and Pyg might appear in this run. Pyg that would be the third or fourth time that Pyg has appeared as a Dick Grayson villain. We just need Nightwing authors to work with villains they didn't create themselves now that there are plenty of ones to pick from.

I'd like to see a run on Nightwing like Snyder had on Batman. A massive run-- 50ish issues-- where the creative team does both. Brings us some new villains (like Snyder did with the Court of Owls), but also gives us some truly great stories with preexisting villains, like Pyg, Blockbuster, Minos, Raptor, et c. Not the same Blockbuster story over and over again, but a new and great story with an old villain.

[SiegePerilous02]

Slade never had any real issues taking on the Titans solo under Wolfman. Compared to him, they were toodlers with little experience.

And yet he couldn't do the job of killing/capturing them on his own, so he had the crazy underage girl he was sleeping with do most of the work.

I think that Dick has gotten some pretty solid villains in the past 6 or seven years, whether he has a true "nemesis" or not. Most of the rogues were as Batman or Agent 37, but it is starting to seem like they are going to become Dick's villains. Professor Pyg, Flamingo, Mr Minos, and Raptor all come to mind as villains memorable enough to make returns in the series. They all also play off of aspects of Dick's character (showman, friend to every hero, et c.).

I think the Club of Villains should be added to the growing list as well. They are a global threat that would lend themselves wells to a fusion of Nightwing/Agent 37 stories, and nobody is doing anything with them anyway.

[oasis1313]

If it's Dick's book, HE should be the one made to look good--not Slade or anybody else.