Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Agent of Spyral - Appreciation

[DjessNL]

I was personally hoping for Rose Wilson, agent of Spyral.

[dropkickjake]

I was personally hoping for Rose Wilson, agent of Spyral.

Also would have been dope. Who knows, if this book is successful, anything could happen.

[Rakiduam]

Seriously people, calm the Hell down. They're not going to make him look like a bumbling idiot, just inexperience, jeez. Seriously, that's the most ridiculous pessimism that I've heard all week. Listening to comic book fans is what can be embittering.

Right. After Forever Evil is not pessimism but previous experience. With a little luck Dick isn't going to spend 8 month tied to a chair waiting for Helena to rescue him.

[Claude]

I'm not sure you know what a Mary Sue is. All the interview told us is that Helena is a better spy than Dick. That makes sense because she's probably been a spy longer than he has in this universe. Nothing suggests the character being idealized.

Nah, everyone knows what a Mary Sue is. "Female character who has all the traits I want in a character".

Can you think of ANYTHING more Sue-ish than Oasis' preferred option of Dick becoming The Bestest Spy In The Organisation on his second day and without training?

[JasonTodd428]

As you say, it depends on how it reads and what sort of reasoning and explanation is laid out. Even if Dick is being given a choice, given his personality it is very easy for Bruce to come off as selfish, uncaring, and Machiavellian, concerned only with his mission. Particularly in the wake of DotF, the possibility of Bruce looking bad, or at least extraordinarily foolish, is very high if things are not handled very, very carefully. If he comes off that way, then it won't matter much that Dick is being technically given a choice. Of course, a big part of this will be why Barbara and Alfred can't be included in the secret. The "staying dead" part, in and of itself, is very logical. The rest is not logical on the face of it, and nothing about this interview relieves the impression of it being very contrived and having the potential to strike all kinds of sour notes. We will see in two weeks.

This is the one part of this that troubles me as I said before elsewhere. They need to handle this just right in order to avoid Bruce coming off as caring more about the mission than about anything else. I also really don't like that Alfred and Babs are being left out of the loop. Actually scratch that I'm not happy that the entire family is being left out of the loop for whatever reason. Those two things are going to be particularly hard sells. I'll probably still enjoy the book anyway mind you since I like a lot of what's been said about it but I'll enjoy it more if they can really sell me on both of those aspects.

Umm, because Dick has never been a spy before. If Helena has been doing this for a long time, then of course she's going to be better at it than him, at least at first. Seriously people, calm the Hell down. They're not going to make him look like a bumbling idiot, just inexperience, jeez. Seriously, that's the most ridiculous pessimism that I've heard all week. Listening to comic book fans is what can be embittering.

Makes sense to me. Dick's been a hero for a long time and knows the ins and outs of that particular world but he has no experience whatsoever with the world of spies. Throwing him into that world without training is detrimental to his life and having him suddenly and inexplicable understand all the ins and outs is lazy writing in my opinion. Yes, a lot of his previous experiences and training will give him a leg up but going in as a green recruit means that he's not going to know the ins and outs of the spy world so he will need to be trained by someone who has that experience. It's no different than when he first became Robin and Bruce was training him.

[Dzetoun]

This is the one part of this that troubles me as I said before elsewhere. They need to handle this just right in order to avoid Bruce coming off as caring more about the mission than about anything else. I also really don't like that Alfred and Babs are being left out of the loop. Actually scratch that I'm not happy that the entire family is being left out of the loop for whatever reason. Those two things are going to be particularly hard sells. I'll probably still enjoy the book anyway mind you since I like a lot of what's been said about it but I'll enjoy it more if they can really sell me on both of those aspects.

You know, this is a wild thought, but I wonder if the entire family is being left out. We know that Barbara and Alfred have been. But what about Tim? Bruce is going to need some help caring for Dick after Forever Evil, and Tim's expertise might be useful as Dick was hooked up to the Apocalyptan technology. That might mean Tim would know about all of this, which would explain some of his otherwise puzzling remarks in Batman Eternal #5 about how working with Bruce "really worked out for Nightwing" and the Bat family "really knows how to stick together." If he does know, and does not approve, that would also explain his attitude, which as others have pointed out seems bitter and vitriolic past what one would expect from DotF or the death of Damian.

It's hard to say, of course. The other wrinkle is that the scene in question was written by Tynion, and might have been meant to relate to whatever he was planning to do with Nightwing 30 when he was slated to write it. Still, a possibility.

[K. Jones]

Dick hasn't been a spy, true. But he's been undercover countless times.

In the 1940s, as soon as Robin came along, Batman had him infiltrating crimes happening in Boys' Schools and Academies. Weeding out corruption.
In the Teen Titans, he faked his own death and infiltrated Brother Blood's cult.
In Snyder's Black Mirror, he's actually the guy who perfected the EMP mask the whole Bat-Family has been using for undercover ops lately, infiltrating the Dealer's auction.
In Young Justice, Dick basically goes from a constant covert operative to a spymaster.

Plus, he's a natural at everything. Though it'll be nice to see him one-upped. But he's Dick Grayson. He's so damned affable and non-egotistical he views being one-upped as a learning experience, or a turn-on. Thus, by his very nature, he one-ups the one-upsman!

[Godlike13]

If Barbara or Alfred doesn't know, then Tim isn't going to know. Or at least he better not know. It would diminish it. Either fully commit, or don't do it.

[JasonTodd428]

You know, this is a wild thought, but I wonder if the entire family is being left out. We know that Barbara and Alfred have been. But what about Tim? Bruce is going to need some help caring for Dick after Forever Evil, and Tim's expertise might be useful as Dick was hooked up to the Apocalyptan technology. That might mean Tim would know about all of this, which would explain some of his otherwise puzzling remarks in Batman Eternal #5 about how working with Bruce "really worked out for Nightwing" and the Bat family "really knows how to stick together." If he does know, and does not approve, that would also explain his attitude, which as others have pointed out seems bitter and vitriolic past what one would expect from DotF or the death of Damian.

It's hard to say, of course. The other wrinkle is that the scene in question was written by Tynion, and might have been meant to relate to whatever he was planning to do with Nightwing 30 when he was slated to write it. Still, a possibility.

That could be interesting and it would explain Tim's attitude there as well. However, I think I have to agree with Godlike13. This probably should be an all or nothing deal.

Plus, he's a natural at everything. Though it'll be nice to see him one-upped. But he's Dick Grayson. He's so damned affable and non-egotistical he views being one-upped as a learning experience, or a turn-on. Thus, by his very nature, he one-ups the one-upsman!

He's a performer at heart so I can see him doing just that and he'll probably be a quick study, learning everything he needs to know within a short period of time. He previous training will be an asset there I think and will give him a bit of an advantage. I just don't think it's a good idea for him to go into this "knowing it all" already. That just wouldn't make sense to me since he comparatively has far less experience in the spy field than Helena B. does at this point. There are similarities between his training under Batman and the training spies undergo but that doesn't mean that the two are entirely interchangeable.

[Dzetoun]

If Barbara or Alfred doesn't know, then Tim isn't going to know. Or at least he better not know. It would diminish it. Either fully commit, or don't do it.

Yeah, that's probably true. Well, we will see. Like JasonTodd says, this is going to be a very hard sell, and a critical one. The staying dead, like I say, makes a lot of sense. The rest ... once again as JasonTodd says, they are going to have to handle that just right.

He's a performer at heart so I can see him doing just that and he'll probably be a quick study, learning everything he needs to know within a short period of time. He previous training will be an asset there I think and will give him a bit of an advantage. I just don't think it's a good idea for him to go into this "knowing it all" already. That just wouldn't make sense to me since he comparatively has far less experience in the spy field than Helena B. does at this point. There are similarities between his training under Batman and the training spies undergo but that doesn't mean that the two are entirely interchangeable.

Playing up Dick's background as a performer would make a lot of sense in this context. That is an aspect of his past that has rarely been used to good effect, which is surprising considering the possibilities. Higgins probably did more with it than anyone else, come down to that, and Seeley and King might be able to build off some of what Higgins did if they so desire.

[JasonTodd428]

Yeah, that's probably true. Well, we will see. Like JasonTodd says, this is going to be a very hard sell, and a critical one. The staying dead, like I say, makes a lot of sense. The rest ... once again as JasonTodd says, they are going to have to handle that just right.

Staying dead makes a lot of sense if Dick's wanting to protect the rest of the family and I can see him wanting to do that particularly given the kinds of enemies the Bat Family tends to make. Everything else though is going to be a tough sell. A really tough sell. I guess we'll have to wait for the final Nightwing issue and maybe the first Grayson issue to see how it goes.

Playing up Dick's background as a performer would make a lot of sense in this context. That is an aspect of his past that has rarely been used to good effect, which is surprising considering the possibilities. Higgins probably did more with it than anyone else, come down to that, and Seeley and King might be able to build off some of what Higgins did if they so desire.

I'd like to see that aspect of Dick being put to use too and seeing Seeley and King building off of things Higgins did could make the transition between the two creative teams a bit smoother as well.

[Conway]

Staying dead makes a lot of sense if Dick's wanting to protect the rest of the family and I can see him wanting to do that particularly given the kinds of enemies the Bat Family tends to make. Everything else though is going to be a tough sell. A really tough sell. I guess we'll have to wait for the final Nightwing issue and maybe the first Grayson issue to see how it goes.

See, it only makes sense in the idea that he doesn't want to put anyone else in danger, but Bruce and Tim are still out in the cold. It's not like their enemies (or commissioner Gordon) are going to forget that Nightwing was Dick Grayson. Babs is far enough removed from the situation that she's not in real danger. Jason is still dead and in hiding on a deserted island so he's safe. Damian is dead so there isn't a whole lot of trouble it will get him into, but Bruce and Tim are obviously Batman and Red Robin if Dick Grayson is Nightwing. The only way out for them is if someone shows up as Bruce and Tim at the funeral that Batman and Red Robin are at. For that matter, Damian has to show up too, since he's supposed to be at boarding school.

[Dzetoun]

See, it only makes sense in the idea that he doesn't want to put anyone else in danger, but Bruce and Tim are still out in the cold. It's not like their enemies (or commissioner Gordon) are going to forget that Nightwing was Dick Grayson. Babs is far enough removed from the situation that she's not in real danger. Jason is still dead and in hiding on a deserted island so he's safe. Damian is dead so there isn't a whole lot of trouble it will get him into, but Bruce and Tim are obviously Batman and Red Robin if Dick Grayson is Nightwing. The only way out for them is if someone shows up as Bruce and Tim at the funeral that Batman and Red Robin are at. For that matter, Damian has to show up too, since he's supposed to be at boarding school.

That is a good point. It would be an interesting idea for Bruce to stage a public funeral for Dick and attend with Batman at his side. He could ask Jason to wear the cowl, since having Dick do it would be too dangerous as the Bat Family would surely recognize him. But in this instance I guess they will probably be saved by the fact that Gotham is full of dullards. After all, no one commented on the fact that Bruce's son disappeared to "Europe" at the same time Robin died, Robin being an obvious match in age, physical build, and hair color for said son.

However, just because Gotham is full of dullards doesn't make readers the same. When it comes to how all this plays out, explanations that might satisfy your average Gothamite may well fall flat as part of the setup for Grayson. Well, if anybody at DC can keep their foot out of the bear trap, it's probably Seeley. At least his work for other publishers has shown a better feel for character and situation than that of the average "superhero" writer.

[dropkickjake]

Honestly, I think it would be a bit easier to take if Dick had an established cast of civilian friends. Currently, all his friends are vigilantes it seems. Vigilantes who can probably take care of themselves. I suppose villains could go after Babs or Bruce to "get to" Nightwing. Congratulations, you're dealing with Batgirl and Batgod. Best of luck. Maybe he could be defending Alfred?

Now, characters like Dick's room mates in Chicago, Sonia Branch, whatever is left of Haly's Circus, if someone went after them they'd be in a world of trouble. While it's believable that Dick cares deeply for these characters, the we as an audience never had much time with any set of supporting characters. Since we didn't have time, we also don't have much of an attachment to them, so we can't really feel the weight of Dick sacrificing what he loves (superheroing) to protecting them.

[Dzetoun]

Honestly, I think it would be a bit easier to take if Dick had an established cast of civilian friends. Currently, all his friends are vigilantes it seems. Vigilantes who can probably take care of themselves. I suppose villains could go after Babs or Bruce to "get to" Nightwing. Congratulations, you're dealing with Batgirl and Batgod. Best of luck. Maybe he could be defending Alfred?

Now, characters like Dick's room mates in Chicago, Sonia Branch, whatever is left of Haly's Circus, if someone went after them they'd be in a world of trouble. While it's believable that Dick cares deeply for these characters, the we as an audience never had much time with any set of supporting characters. Since we didn't have time, we also don't have much of an attachment to them, so we can't really feel the weight of Dick sacrificing what he loves (superheroing) to protecting them.

Yeah, you have a very good point. This is one of those places where the five year timeline and the loss of history and connections really hurts. In the old continuity, one could think of any number of people that would be targets if Dick's identity were revealed. Even if, granted, most of them would be vigilantes even in a pre-Flashpoint world, there were still so many of them. Now, not so much. I think that's one reason even the unmasking fell a little flat. The Crime Syndicate announced that "Richard Grayson has lived many places and has many friends," or something to that effect. And I think a very common response was "Really?" Owlman also makes mention of how how the Crime Syndicate has "destroyed" Dick's old life in Chicago, which implies a great deal of damage has already been done.

One good thing is that the creative team says they understand this and want to partially correct it by recovering aspects of Dick's story from the old timeline. The announcement about Helena Bertinelli is certainly a step in that direction, and one wonders who else is waiting in the wings. Bette Kane would be logical, and in fact if someone had said one of Dick's old female friends was returning as a partner I would have guessed her before Helena. Still, with losing his connection to the Bat Family it is kind of one step forward, two back for the time being (I don't think anyone expects this situation to last permanently). And the arguments about keeping people in the dark for their own protection would have been much more powerful if some of the recovery could have come before this happened.

Of course, it's an assumption that they are going to use the "keep them in the dark for their own protection," line. There's always the good of the mission (which puts us back into BatJerk territory again) or the protection angle could even be turned around to "keep everyone in the dark for your protection." Seeley says that Spiral has techniques and technologies of illusion and mind erosion that will help keep Dick hidden effectively, and that could be part of the argument, as well.