Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Agent of Spyral - Appreciation

[Dzetoun]

In addition to being "the two best buddies", I like that Dick and Bruce talk to each other not as superior and subordinate, but more as equal co-conspirators. In the last couple of issues, we've seen Bruce take orders from Dick without question, apologize for mistakes, and even freak out over the nanomachines (with Dick having to do the reassuring, saying "we'll figure out a way"). It reminds me of their relationship in the second season of Young Justice, where Batman treats Nightwing as a peer, and it's implied that Dick took up the Nightwing mantle without ever having a falling out with Bruce.

Yes. This actually is something that King, rather than Seeley, has emphasized. I have heard a couple of podcasts where King has said he really prefers a chronology in which Dick comes to live with Bruce at 12 rather than 16, precisely because it emphasizes one aspect of Bruce's character that gets lost if you don't allow the Bruce/Dick interactions to spread out and establish deep roots. That is the truly remarkable fact that somehow, someway, this deeply scarred individual took in a traumatized child and managed, somehow, to keep him from becoming scarred in turn. Somehow, Bruce was able to step back and analyze his own darkness and see to it that Dick never became infected with it.

To put it in terms of Snyder's overarching narrative, Dick represents the one time in his life Bruce was able to look Gotham in her bony face and say, firmly, "NO." It is even more remarkable if you consider that he wasn't able to do that for Jason, or Tim, or even Damian. To explore those other relationships it outside the bounds of Grayson, but once again it emphasizes the heavy aura of the Silver Age that surrounds Dick and Bruce.

And it also illustrates why, as long as the Snyderesque view of Gotham and Batman's relationship to the city holds, it is so very important that Dick stay outside of the city. Snyder likes to say that Batman loves only one thing ... Gotham. Seeley and King seem to be saying ... "Well, now, I don't know about that." As long as Dick stays away from the city, the two interpretations don't come into conflict, allowing everybody to have it their own way.

[tako]

Yes. This actually is something that King, rather than Seeley, has emphasized. I have heard a couple of podcasts where King has said he really prefers a chronology in which Dick comes to live with Bruce at 12 rather than 16, precisely because it emphasizes one aspect of Bruce's character that gets lost if you don't allow the Bruce/Dick interactions to spread out and establish deep roots. That is the truly remarkable fact that somehow, someway, this deeply scarred individual took in a traumatized child and managed, somehow, to keep him from becoming scarred in turn. Somehow, Bruce was able to step back and analyze his own darkness and see to it that Dick never became infected with it.

To put it in terms of Snyder's overarching narrative, Dick represents the one time in his life Bruce was able to look Gotham in her bony face and say, firmly, "NO." It is even more remarkable if you consider that he wasn't able to do that for Jason, or Tim, or even Damian. To explore those other relationships it outside the bounds of Grayson, but once again it emphasizes the heavy aura of the Silver Age that surrounds Dick and Bruce.

And it also illustrates why, as long as the Snyderesque view of Gotham and Batman's relationship to the city holds, it is so very important that Dick stay outside of the city. Snyder likes to say that Batman loves only one thing ... Gotham. Seeley and King seem to be saying ... "Well, now, I don't know about that." As long as Dick stays away from the city, the two interpretations don't come into conflict, allowing everybody to have it their own way.

I think that's more than just Snyder's gotham, really. It's been a thing at DC long before Snyder came by.
Dick Grayson as the only thing Batman ever did right is a long running trope in DC Comics.
unless you mean something else. idk.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

I love the Bruce and Dick interactions so far as it recalls when they were partners working on a case for a greater purpose and not a over emphasis on establishing that he is his own man because that is childish and does not establish that he is his own man

[LoneNecromancer]

I love the Bruce and Dick interactions so far as it recalls when they were partners working on a case for a greater purpose and not a over emphasis on establishing that he is his own man because that is childish and does not establish that he is his own man

I agree entirely on this. The Nightwing identity has suffered from this a lot whenever this is constantly brought up in-story and interviews, and ends up seeming more like a case of teenage rebellion or this being just a phase.

[M L A]

I love the Bruce and Dick interactions so far as it recalls when they were partners working on a case for a greater purpose and not a over emphasis on establishing that he is his own man because that is childish and does not establish that he is his own man

Ugh, yes. He's had this problem for some time, just going back and forth between GOTTA BE MY OWN MAN and WAIT A MINUTE DOES BRUCE THINK I'M AN ACCOMPLISHED INDIVIDUAL..... oh ok he does, now where was I.. oh yeah, GOTTA DO MY OWN THING. It worked during NTT and the whole Azbats/Prodigal/new to Bludhaven thing (if you like continuity). But when it just keeps happening it just makes me roll my eyes tbh.

[BloodOps]

In addition to being "the two best buddies", I like that Dick and Bruce talk to each other not as superior and subordinate, but more as equal co-conspirators. In the last couple of issues, we've seen Bruce take orders from Dick without question, apologize for mistakes, and even freak out over the nanomachines (with Dick having to do the reassuring, saying "we'll figure out a way"). It reminds me of their relationship in the second season of Young Justice, where Batman treats Nightwing as a peer, and it's implied that Dick took up the Nightwing mantle without ever having a falling out with Bruce.

Probably my favorite thing they're doing right now. Bruce see's Dick as an equal at this point in his career, apart of the family but his own man. Which it should be imo.

[Godlike13]

Its fans that tend to bring up being his "own man" and the "shadow of the bat" more then they actually do in comics. Though at the same time, non of Dick's previous series had Bruce as part of the supporting cast. That is something new that King/Seeley has done.

[K. Jones]

Thank God Bruce cured Dick of Gotham affliction and succeeded in making him un-dark before the mid-Eighties, am I right?

If he'd become Nightwing in 1987 it would've been the result of brutality or something. Or more likely Babs or Starfire getting fridged.

[Dzetoun]

Thank God Bruce cured Dick of Gotham affliction and succeeded in making him un-dark before the mid-Eighties, am I right?

If he'd become Nightwing in 1987 it would've been the result of brutality or something. Or more likely Babs or Starfire getting fridged.

The origin Max Allan Collins did post-Crisis wasn't awful. And, of course, they managed to keep Tim Drake's initial origin free of that kind of stuff, at least so far as Tim himself was concerned. But yeah, the 1986-1989 period was pretty horrible.

[Claude]

All very true. The only nit I would pick is that the statements you mention were actually made by Seeley, not King. King in his early interviews was talking about Bruce and Dick fighting "a lot" over the nature of Dick's mission, and how doing good by causing pain to his family would cause Dick to go "a little crazy" from all the stress and angst. We may see that yet, but King seemed to indicate in his last podcast that Seeley had pushed him to move away from all that. Seeley, on the other hand, likes to talk about Dick as the "happy Robin" and "humanist Robin" and how he and Bruce are "the best buddies that could possibly be." I don't want to predicate lots of tension between the two, just a different approach, with Seeley's the more dominant since they decided to suppress the darker themes and implications of Nightwing #30.

That all seems likely - and thanks for the correction! I seem to automatically peg the "cuddly" bits to King and the "badass" bits to Seeley, when really it should perhaps be the other way round!

Personally, I suspect that Seeley would rather just retcon Forever Evil, or at least it's fallout for Dick, and call it a day. They really are in a no win situation. If they honor what was put forth in Forever Evil, the entire book will be consumed with sadness and dark angst. If they don't, they don't get any setup accomplished and the final reveal may bring forth as many boos as cheers.

Wouldn't everyone rather retcon that? At absolute best, it's the set-up for an aborted alternative path for Dick. Of course, and I'm just sayin', Seeley put Dick inside the one organisation in the DCU capable of in-universe retcon!

[Claude]

Yes. This actually is something that King, rather than Seeley, has emphasized. I have heard a couple of podcasts where King has said he really prefers a chronology in which Dick comes to live with Bruce at 12 rather than 16, precisely because it emphasizes one aspect of Bruce's character that gets lost if you don't allow the Bruce/Dick interactions to spread out and establish deep roots. That is the truly remarkable fact that somehow, someway, this deeply scarred individual took in a traumatized child and managed, somehow, to keep him from becoming scarred in turn. Somehow, Bruce was able to step back and analyze his own darkness and see to it that Dick never became infected with it.

It's Batman's sometimes-central Modus Operandi, isn't it? "Becoming Batman so that noone else has to."

It even works quite nicely with Synder and Higgins's mostly-not-talked-about-now Court Of Owls secret Dick backstory - Bruce just had A Really Bad Day Out Of Nowhere, whereas Dick had everything stacked against him.

To put it in terms of Snyder's overarching narrative, Dick represents the one time in his life Bruce was able to look Gotham in her bony face and say, firmly, "NO." It is even more remarkable if you consider that he wasn't able to do that for Jason, or Tim, or even Damian. To explore those other relationships it outside the bounds of Grayson, but once again it emphasizes the heavy aura of the Silver Age that surrounds Dick and Bruce.

I think there's probably an interesting story to tell about why it "worked" with Dick in a way that it didn't with Jason and Tim.

Although, thinking about it, both would probably come down to "editorial screwed them over more".

And it also illustrates why, as long as the Snyderesque view of Gotham and Batman's relationship to the city holds, it is so very important that Dick stay outside of the city. Snyder likes to say that Batman loves only one thing ... Gotham. Seeley and King seem to be saying ... "Well, now, I don't know about that." As long as Dick stays away from the city, the two interpretations don't come into conflict, allowing everybody to have it their own way.

Ah, yes - the positive benefit to the probably undeniable coolness that Snyder has for the whole set-up!



Also, this exchange has reminded me - after that podcast interview, I really want "Batman And Robin" to be one of King's upcoming post-Convergence projects. He really seems to get it.

[Fuzzy Cactus]

Yes. This actually is something that King, rather than Seeley, has emphasized. I have heard a couple of podcasts where King has said he really prefers a chronology in which Dick comes to live with Bruce at 12 rather than 16, precisely because it emphasizes one aspect of Bruce's character that gets lost if you don't allow the Bruce/Dick interactions to spread out and establish deep roots. That is the truly remarkable fact that somehow, someway, this deeply scarred individual took in a traumatized child and managed, somehow, to keep him from becoming scarred in turn. Somehow, Bruce was able to step back and analyze his own darkness and see to it that Dick never became infected with it.

To put it in terms of Snyder's overarching narrative, Dick represents the one time in his life Bruce was able to look Gotham in her bony face and say, firmly, "NO." It is even more remarkable if you consider that he wasn't able to do that for Jason, or Tim, or even Damian. To explore those other relationships it outside the bounds of Grayson, but once again it emphasizes the heavy aura of the Silver Age that surrounds Dick and Bruce.

And it also illustrates why, as long as the Snyderesque view of Gotham and Batman's relationship to the city holds, it is so very important that Dick stay outside of the city. Snyder likes to say that Batman loves only one thing ... Gotham. Seeley and King seem to be saying ... "Well, now, I don't know about that." As long as Dick stays away from the city, the two interpretations don't come into conflict, allowing everybody to have it their own way.

This reminds me of the end of Zero Year, where Alfred imagines Bruce going on a date with Julie Madison, and having a family, but Bruce chooses Gotham instead. I think Bruce sees Dick as someone who could (eventually) live the life he never did, settling down and starting a family (but hopefully without that awful mustache).

Also, this exchange has reminded me - after that podcast interview, I really want "Batman And Robin" to be one of King's upcoming post-Convergence projects. He really seems to get it.

I would love a "Grayson/Robin" series. C'mon the timing is perfect! Damian's missing from Eternal! Where could he be!?

[Claude]

I would love a "Grayson/Robin" series. C'mon the timing is perfect! Damian's missing from Eternal! Where could he be!?

Damian as Dick's sidekick works, in a way that he really doesn't as Bruce's. Hell, he only ever became Robin in the first place because Dick was Batman!

Damian going off to live and work with Dick, whilst Bruce went and got someone like Duke as Robin - who I was rather taken with in the otherwise pretty pointless Future's End issue of B'n'R - would probably work out best for everyone. Except that I can't see DC not having Damian As Robin, and so he's rather tied to Bruce.

So I'll settle for a Bruce And Dick And Damian book, please. By Tom King. Either post "Dick Is Alive" reveal, or with them all in their big, secret clubhouse.

[Rac7d*]

Damian as Dick's sidekick works, in a way that he really doesn't as Bruce's. Hell, he only ever became Robin in the first place because Dick was Batman!

Damian going off to live and work with Dick, whilst Bruce went and got someone like Duke as Robin - who I was rather taken with in the otherwise pretty pointless Future's End issue of B'n'R - would probably work out best for everyone. Except that I can't see DC not having Damian As Robin, and so he's rather tied to Bruce.

So I'll settle for a Bruce And Dick And Damian book, please. By Tom King. Either post "Dick Is Alive" reveal, or with them all in their big, secret clubhouse.

That would be great. I am pretty bummed Damian is coming back to find out Dick is dead. I don't think his position as robin will last too long, the superpower thing has me on edge that it will ruin the balance of power in the relatinship, esp with someone as impulsve as Damian. Woulndt be suprised if he got sent to smallville for a while.

[Claude]

That would be great. I am pretty bummed Damian is coming back to find out Dick is dead. I don't think his position as robin will last too long, the superpower thing has me on edge that it will ruin the balance of power in the relatinship, esp with someone as impulsve as Damian. Woulndt be suprised if he got sent to smallville for a while.

I kinda feel, at this point, that if he wasn't going to be Robin again - and a constant presence in a number of titles - then they'd just have left him dead. I'm with you on being.... wary about the superpowers thing though.