Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Agent of Spyral - Appreciation

[joybeans]

It simplifies the starting point of what the reader is expected to know. Instead of all that baggage from Forever Evil and the cave brawl, the reader just needs know this: Dick was a superhero, he "died", and now he's working for Spyral. It's a lot easier to swallow for a new reader, as simple as "Bruce Wayne's parents died, and now he's Batman." From there, Seeley and King can fill in the backstory at their own pace. The whole Nightwing #30 ordeal can just be an epilogue that points readers of Higgins' run to Grayson.

[Claude]

Nightwing 30 is in the last Nightwing TPB, which is probably not the best decision in the world. However, they likely simply substituted it for the original Tynion issue, which would have likely fit much better as a capstone to the series. The first Grayson trade will include Seeley's Secret Origins segment. I suppose they will put those dozen pages at the front as background. Now, the Secret Origins material does give a different view of events from Nightwing 30. Dick appears to have much greater agency in the whole thing, and any hint of the problematic stuff from the earlier version is gone. Still, the new stuff is told from Helena's viewpoint, which may or may not be accurate. So, we may or may not have a subtle retcon of some things.

For me, the important thing about Nightwing 30 isn't that it's in the final Nightwing trade as such, so much as it's that we have minor evidence - amazon listings etc - that at one point it wasn't.

Early indication was that Nightwing Vol 4 would stop at 29, and Grayson Vol 4 would start with Nightwing 30 as it's first chapter. That this changed is potentially telling.

[Dzetoun]

For me, the important thing about Nightwing 30 isn't that it's in the final Nightwing trade as such, so much as it's that we have minor evidence - amazon listings etc - that at one point it wasn't.

Early indication was that Nightwing Vol 4 would stop at 29, and Grayson Vol 4 would start with Nightwing 30 as it's first chapter. That this changed is potentially telling.

Yes, that is interesting. I think we probably have to be careful about reading too much too quickly into decisions about the trades. A contact of mine in the publishing industry once told me there are all kinds of technical and marketing factors involved in putting them together that are pretty much invisible from the outside. For instance he pointed out that they are conceived as sets, and for a set of books like that it is just a lot more efficient if you can keep them all more-or-less the same size. It just makes the physical manipulations involved, the printing and binding and packaging and shipping and even the display on the bookshelves, much easier.

Having said that, I do think it's clear that they were setting up a certain kind of story in Nightwing 30. We have the dialogue during the Bat Brawl (about how things were never going to be the same between Dick and Bruce again, Bruce is prepared to make that sacrifice, etc.), the visual clue of the picture of Bruce and Dick being askew, and a lot of the early interviews about Dick and Batman fighting a lot, etc. By Grayson #4 they had stepped firmly back from those themes, and the Secret Origins segment doesn't just ignore them, it stakes them through the heart. It is my strong suspicion that, in this case, the boundary between the trades really is narratively significant, and Nightwing 30 is in the same world with Tony Zucco and Raya Vestri, that is with all those distressing family matters that polite people don't talk about.

[Csjbo08]

Yes, that is interesting. I think we probably have to be careful about reading too much too quickly into decisions about the trades. A contact of mine in the publishing industry once told me there are all kinds of technical and marketing factors involved in putting them together that are pretty much invisible from the outside. For instance he pointed out that they are conceived as sets, and for a set of books like that it is just a lot more efficient if you can keep them all more-or-less the same size. It just makes the physical manipulations involved, the printing and binding and packaging and shipping and even the display on the bookshelves, much easier.

Having said that, I do think it's clear that they were setting up a certain kind of story in Nightwing 30. We have the dialogue during the Bat Brawl (about how things were never going to be the same between Dick and Bruce again, Bruce is prepared to make that sacrifice, etc.), the visual clue of the picture of Bruce and Dick being askew, and a lot of the early interviews about Dick and Batman fighting a lot, etc. By Grayson #4 they had stepped firmly back from those themes, and the Secret Origins segment doesn't just ignore them, it stakes them through the heart. It is my strong suspicion that, in this case, the boundary between the trades really is narratively significant, and Nightwing 30 is in the same world with Tony Zucco and Raya Vestri, that is with all those distressing family matters that polite people don't talk about.

There is nothing in the Secret Origins issue that contradicts the information presented in Nightwing #30, all it did was present the Agent Grayson origin story from Helena's POV. The overlap between these two issues happened with Dick traveling the world fighting the Fist of Cain. Those two comics work side-by-side, not against each other with one giving us a more detailed explanation for Dick Grayson becoming Agent 37 and the other giving us why Spyral and in particular Helena Bertinelli wanted to recruit Dick Grayson.

I think that was the Tim & Tom's plan with the Secret Origins issue because they didn't want to redo Dick's Agent 37 origin story, because it would just add confusion, but they had to give us something. Ultimately they decided to just change the POV and focus more on the history of Dick Grayson, giving the readers a slight glimpse inside the mind of Helena Bertinelli and explain why Helena is Dick's partner.

I'm not going to rule out the possibility that Nightwing #30 is going to be retconned out at some point, but I don't see anything suggest that it's not a part of canon and I also think that people are overthinking this.

[Dzetoun]

There is nothing in the Secret Origins issue that contradicts the information presented in Nightwing #30, all it did was present the Agent Grayson origin story from Helena's POV. The overlap between these two issues happened with Dick traveling the world fighting the Fist of Cain. Those two comics work side-by-side, not against each other with one giving us a more detailed explanation for Dick Grayson becoming Agent 37 and the other giving us why Spyral and in particular Helena Bertinelli wanted to recruit Dick Grayson.

I think that was the Tim & Tom's plan with the Secret Origins issue because they didn't want to redo Dick's Agent 37 origin story, because it would just add confusion, but they had to give us something. Ultimately they decided to just change the POV and focus more on the history of Dick Grayson and give us a slight glimpse inside the mind of Helena Bertinelli.

I'm not going to rule out the possibility that Nightwing #30 is going to be retconned out at some point, but I don't see anything suggest that it's not a part of canon and I also think that people are overthinking this.

Oh, please. The tones are completely different, and when added to the portrayals in Grayson, the themes in the Dick and Bruce relationship and much of the emotional emphasis in the series overall is dramatically more positive. Add that to the fact that King himself openly admits that Nightwing 30 was a bad mistake and he wishes he had never written it that way. But I do agree that the shifts are in emotional tone and emphasis on aspects of relationships. So far they have not retconned specific facts, but just laid the groundwork to ignore all the unfortunate implications of that issue. And they have, very happily, briskly ignored them and will likely continue to do so. ("Fight in the Bat Cave? What are you talking about! Bruce and Dick always had a strong relationship, says so right there in the trade! Nightwing 30? Uhm...you know Lex Luthor is going to be guesting soon?")

[Csjbo08]

Oh, please. The tones are completely different, and when added to the portrayals in Grayson, the themes in the Dick and Bruce relationship and much of the emotional emphasis in the series overall is dramatically more positive. Add that to the fact that King himself openly admits that Nightwing 30 was a bad mistake and he wishes he had never written it that way. But I do agree that the shifts are in emotional tone and emphasis on aspects of relationships. So far they have not retconned specific facts, but just laid the groundwork to ignore all the unfortunate implications of that issue. And they have, very happily, briskly ignored them and will likely continue to do so. ("Fight in the Bat Cave? What are you talking about! Bruce and Dick always had a strong relationship, says so right there in the trade! Nightwing 30? Uhm...you know Lex Luthor is going to be guesting soon?")

Due to the fact that the story was from Spyral's POV, we never saw Bruce and Dick interact with each other in Secret Origins so it's hard to support the theory that Secret Origins drove a stake through the heart of the scene in the Batcave in Nightwing #30. We get a very brief mention of the fact that Dick was the foil to Bruce from Helena's narration but Nightwing #30 never defined Bruce and Dick as one of the same so there was no contradiction.

It's important to note that the tones in Nightwing #30 varied, with the lighter parts coming from Seeley and the more serious moments coming from King and that is consistent with how the tone of Grayson has gone. Tom King's offerings are generally more serious than Tim Seeley's. It is true that the relationship Bruce and Dick have throughout the main series is friendlier, but that doesn't necessarily recton the Batcave scene, especially since the Batcave scene might have started out with tension but at the end, they did look like good friends.

I don't think that the implications of Nightwing #30 were unforunate because the writers in interviews have frequently said that the relationship between Bruce and Dick will be tested and it will change (albiet we don't know in what way), which is exactly what was foreshadowed in that issue. While Tom King might have disavowed the issue, the writers have not been consistent with how they want Nightwing #30 to be viewed because both him and Tim have said that it should be recognized that Dick Grayson definatively beat Batman in the Batcave brawl. They can't have it both ways to where we remember the result of the brawl but not the words that were said during the brawl.

[joybeans]

For me, the important thing about Nightwing 30 isn't that it's in the final Nightwing trade as such, so much as it's that we have minor evidence - amazon listings etc - that at one point it wasn't.

Early indication was that Nightwing Vol 4 would stop at 29, and Grayson Vol 4 would start with Nightwing 30 as it's first chapter. That this changed is potentially telling.

This stuff changes all the time. Originally, sites listed Grayson Vol. 1 as including #1-7. I'm guessing that the initial listings were written as placeholders without consultation from the writers. Even now, there are discrepancies. Amazon says that Grayson Vol 1 includes the Annual, while the official DC solicit lists Futures End instead.

[Badou]

Actually another interesting point about Dick joining Spyral to "stop them from uncovering the hero identities" is what happens to character like Superman and Batman after convergence. Guess I'll put them in a spoiler since it is spoiling some things.

spoilers:

In Superman it is revealed that Lois revealed his identity to the entire world. So everyone knows that Clark is Superman. Also apparently everyone thinks Batman is "dead" along with the Joker. So maybe one of the reasons they decided to move the Grayson series away from Dick trying to top them from uncovering hero identities, or not focus on it as much, is that with stories where Superman has been exposed going on in the Superman line it doesn't really make a lot of sense for Dick to be trying to stop Spyral from revealing his identity. It's already been revealed. So maybe things like that made the Grayson team change their original plans. Plus with Superman now exposed no one is really going to care about Nightwing being exposed probably. So they can probably start to sweep that under the rug more as well.

end of spoilers

[byrd156]

If all these identities are already revealed what was the point of Agent Grayson?

[Csjbo08]

Actually another interesting point about Dick joining Spyral to "stop them from uncovering the hero identities" is what happens to character like Superman and Batman after convergence. Guess I'll put them in a spoiler since it is spoiling some things.

spoilers:

In Superman it is revealed that Lois revealed his identity to the entire world. So everyone knows that Clark is Superman. Also apparently everyone thinks Batman is "dead" along with the Joker. So maybe one of the reasons they decided to move the Grayson series away from Dick trying to top them from uncovering hero identities, or not focus on it as much, is that with stories where Superman has been exposed going on in the Superman line it doesn't really make a lot of sense for Dick to be trying to stop Spyral from revealing his identity. It's already been revealed. So maybe things like that made the Grayson team change their original plans. Plus with Superman now exposed no one is really going to care about Nightwing being exposed probably. So they can probably start to sweep that under the rug more as well.

end of spoilers

Well according to the writers, the purpose of the Paragon arc was to get the audience acclimated to the idea of Dick Grayson being a spy with the 'uncovering of superhero identites' serving as the conduit. So it's certainly possible that the writers feel as though the first arc served it's purpose, therefore they can phase the identity discoveries out of Grayson and they can move on and tell the stories they want to tell.

That being said, the recent events involving Batman and Superman shouldn't cause them to abandon that plotline. Batman and Superman are not the only two superheroes in the DCU. If anything the idea that two of the most iconic heroes in the DCU spoilers:

"dying" or having their identity revealed

end of spoilers could raise the stakes of his mission because no one in the DCU would be safe from those two threats.

Either way, we won't know until the next few issues just how much of an impact the 'uncovering identities' plot will continue to have on Grayson.

[oasis1313]

" I don't think that the implications of Nightwing #30 were unforunate because the writers in interviews have frequently said that the relationship between Bruce and Dick will be tested and it will change (albiet we don't know in what way), which is exactly what was foreshadowed in that issue. While Tom King might have disavowed the issue, the writers have not been consistent with how they want Nightwing #30 to be viewed because both him and Tim have said that it should be recognized that Dick Grayson definatively beat Batman in the Batcave brawl. They can't have it both ways to where we remember the result of the brawl but not the words that were said during the brawl. "

Ooooh, however will their "relationship" change? Are they going to be on the outs with each other again and not on speaking terms? Why, we've never seen THAT before! Okay, no more sarcasm: I'm tired of the "angry young man in rebellion mode" stuff between Dick and Bruce. It's been going on 30 years. I'd like them to be friends and peers.

[Csjbo08]

" I don't think that the implications of Nightwing #30 were unforunate because the writers in interviews have frequently said that the relationship between Bruce and Dick will be tested and it will change (albiet we don't know in what way), which is exactly what was foreshadowed in that issue. While Tom King might have disavowed the issue, the writers have not been consistent with how they want Nightwing #30 to be viewed because both him and Tim have said that it should be recognized that Dick Grayson definatively beat Batman in the Batcave brawl. They can't have it both ways to where we remember the result of the brawl but not the words that were said during the brawl. "

Ooooh, however will their "relationship" change? Are they going to be on the outs with each other again and not on speaking terms? Why, we've never seen THAT before! Okay, no more sarcasm: I'm tired of the "angry young man in rebellion mode" stuff between Dick and Bruce. It's been going on 30 years. I'd like them to be friends and peers.

Good thing we have Jason Todd whose role in the Batfamily now is to be the estranged Robin with a rebellious nature, wearing a Nightwing costume, crushing on Babs, brothers with Tim Drake and friends with Roy and Kori*. I'm pretty sure that if Tim and Tom were to change the dyamics of Dick and Bruce, it would ultimately be a positive one.



*Kori's relationship with the Outlaws could be retconned out when June rolls around...

[brucekent12]

The only thing they need to put into the Grayson trade from Nightwing 30 is the last part that Seeley and King wrote. The first part, and especially the fight was not needed.

[Godlike13]

Im not not sold that Bruce and Dick's relationship won't eventually be tested. Unless they're not really serious about Dick as a part of Spyral. Though if they are serious, and they plan to really run with Dick as a spy, at some point Dick's place with Batman and Spyral is going to have to come to a head.

And in regards to what going on with Batman.
spoilers:

Bruce being out of the picture actually gives them an opportunity to have really have Spyral pull Dick in and sell Dick on truly becoming part of their organization. Who better for Dick than Kathy to fill that void left by Bruce's absence.

end of spoilers

[jules]

The only thing they need to put into the Grayson trade from Nightwing 30 is the last part that Seeley and King wrote. The first part, and especially the fight was not needed.

The first part of Nightwing #30 has a fairly critical function: it's the whole justification for not telling anyone else that Dick's alive or that he's undercover. It shows that under hypnos interrogation anyone can give away Batman (or any other hero)'s secrets, no matter how well intentioned they are, and that they might not even remember doing it so that precautions can be taken afterwards. So keeping the secret between just Bruce and Dick is to protect Dick against the possibility that someone like Alfred or Barbara might get interrogated.

Because if Spyral had any suspicions at all that he was a double agent, that was quite a likely course of action for them to take.

(The one thing missing from the Secret Origins story was someone doing just that, but I suspect Kathy doesn't feel she needs to, and if Helena is Kathy's agent as seems likely, then she didn't need to either. The interrogation of Leslie was probably for Minos, and part of his Paragon project.)