The lack of dominant, bad ass heroes.

[Legato]

I've always loved Die Hard. John was never a muscle bound action hero nor was invincible, at least during the earlier movies, and while he gets his ass handed to him he still takes it to the bad guys. At the time he was the perfect example of a badass action hero yet not overly invincible.

[Arfguy]

What do you think of Jason Bourne from the Bourne Trilogy, leo619?

[Mikekerr3]

Completely untrue, there's no where in the definition of hero that states someone that has to struggle to win.

The definative study on literary and mythic heroes was written by Joesph Campbell "the power of myth" disagrees with you. Just like you can not be brave without being afraid (just stupid), you cant be a hero without struggle. It is a necessary ingredient

[leo619]

What do you think of Jason Bourne from the Bourne Trilogy, leo619?

Oh yeah, Jason Bourne was is another great example, not with complete untamed power like the hulk per say, but the fact that whenever an obstacle came his way he seem to almost always dominated it. IMO, he's a much better example of what I was referring to than say James Bond or Batman, who get's their tail whooped on the regular lol.

[leo619]

The definative study on literary and mythic heroes was written by Joesph Campbell "the power of myth" disagrees with you. Just like you can not be brave without being afraid (just stupid), you cant be a hero without struggle. It is a necessary ingredient

And the dictionary disagrees with that

" a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2.
a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal:
He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3.
the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4.
Classical Mythology.

a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity.
(in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability.
(in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.

5.
hero sandwich.
6.
the bread or roll used in making a hero sandwich.
"


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hero?s=t

Put it to you this way. The dictionary states the following idea regarding racism.

a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


However sociology believes racism is only the second definition, and as such, most minorities can't be racist. While there are a few that subscribe to sociology idea due to it's specialty towards focusing on environmental and societal factors, the majority of people believe in the definition provide above.

Just because someone writes a book or specializes in a specific section does not mean that's the only definition that matters. As I stated before, according to the dictionary, no where does it state that a hero has to be someone who faces struggles.

[Legato]

Oh yeah, Jason Bourne was is another great example, not with complete untamed power like the hulk per say, but the fact that whenever an obstacle came his way he seem to almost always dominated it. IMO, he's a much better example of what I was referring to than say James Bond or Batman, who get's their tail whooped on the regular lol.

Out of curiosity how do you see John McClane of Die Hard?

[leo619]

Ok, but the thing is...the Hulk was the strongest dude in that movie and had a cool scene, but he wasn't an alpha male. The alpha males were Cap and Tony. These were the confident guys, the guys who who were actually handling the various situations, the guys who got the other characters to follow them, and to a small extent butted heads with each other over dominance. Tony oozes swagger. Cap beams with rugged determination. The Hulks whole thing is that as Banner he is a repressed beta male, but when he's the Hulk he expresses the anger that he can't ( not confident enuff to )under normal circumstances.

Oh I definitely agree that Cap and Tony had alpha traits for sure, Cap had the technical knowledge that made people have faith in believing in his instructions, and Tony's unapologetic matter as you stated oozed swagger, but Cap was also regularly put through the ringer. In fact, I know a few people who were upset at the display of captain america because many people thought he appeared weaker than he should have been. So I wouldn't say they were dominant. For example Loki had Captain America on the ropes before Iron Man came in, of course it was all a trick but Captain could barely hold his own against the asgardian. Hulk on the other, wiped the floor with him like he was playing a pillow fight with the air. That's why I said, no one talked about bruce banner, mostly because of the fact that you mentioned, he's a repressed beta male that's while important for the balance of the hulk, is completely uncharismatic and almost unlikeable. Hulk on the other hand, as mention before, brim with unbreakable dominance and as such was the shining star of the avengers film. To the point to where people were asking for a hulk movie.

The reasons why I was never into Evangelion. In regards to the main character in general

Haha, well like I said I don't mind wimpy characters but I need a balance. I liked eva because Shinji was the first of the wimpy heroes. So he was new, different and refreshing. But it seems like due to the popularity of shinji, the entire pendulum swung that direction to where most anime male characters are wimpy now. There needs to be a sense of balance of wimpy and bad a$$ characters, plus those in between.

And that's all I'm asking, I'm not saying every hero needs to be a dominant juggernault like the hulk or well, the juggernault. I'm just saying there should be a balance between the amount of heroes out there. The heroes that are dominant, heroes that are strong yet struggle, heroes who are lower tier and gets their tail whipped like spiderman but saves the day in the end, and so on.

[leo619]

[QUOTE=ed2962;636935]

Out of curiosity how do you see John McClane of Die Hard?

Actually I've never seen Die Hard. I'll be honest and tell you I was young when the Die Hard movies came out and my biological mom was a religious fanatic so I couldn't watch violent movies lol.

[Arfguy]

It may be too artsy, but you should definitely check out Drive. It's really slow in places and I hated it the first time I watched it, but I watched it again very recently and it is absolutely bad-ass. Gosling is the quiet one you gotta watch out for.

As far as overall, I'm thinking that bad guys really have taken the types of characters you're interested. They are confident, vicious and usually portrayed as very skilled. I submit Vincent from the movie Collateral.

[leo619]

It may be too artsy, but you should definitely check out Drive. It's really slow in places and I hated it the first time I watched it, but I watched it again very recently and it is absolutely bad-ass. Gosling is the quiet one you gotta watch out for.

As far as overall, I'm thinking that bad guys really have taken the types of characters you're interested. They are confident, vicious and usually portrayed as very skilled. I submit Vincent from the movie Collateral.

Thank you, and that's exactly my point. A lot of people are liking villains now more than heroes because of the points you mention, they are often displayed as extremely skilled, a good amount of fear factor (like oh crap I shouldn't mess with this dude, something very few heroes have) and very confident. The hulk tapped into that aspect that reserved primarily for just villains and blamo, instant liking. It's like, hello, can't you see a good amount of the audience is craving for a dominant powerful hero that people are like "Oh Crap, the hulk (or insert hero here) is coming, we're screwed" lol.

[Paradox]

leo619 reveals:

You can still be thoughtful and considerate and still be a bada$$, but as stated before, that hero needs to be presented as a beast, someone when presented with a challenge lays waste to it like the Hulk did in the Avengers

I prefer a well-thought-out, well-constructed story to someone viscerally stroking my id.

[Arfguy]

This is exactly why we need another frikkin' Blade movie! Alas, there is only ONE Wesley Snipes and if Marvel Studios ever makes another Blade movie, I don't think Snipes will be the guy they call upon. The attitude, the skills, the power...Blade was bad-ass!

That's it. I'm watching the first Blade movie after I sign off for the night

[leo619]

I prefer a well-thought-out, well-constructed story to someone viscerally stroking my id.

It doesn't have to be an either or issue. As discussed before, Jason Bourne illustrated you can have a dominant bad-a$$ male who laid out people left and right and still have an engaging story.

[leo619]

This is exactly why we need another frikkin' Blade movie! Alas, there is only ONE Wesley Snipes and if Marvel Studios ever makes another Blade movie, I don't think Snipes will be the guy they call upon. The attitude, the skills, the power...Blade was bad-ass!

That's it. I'm watching the first Blade movie after I sign off for the night

You get me! Blade is another example, that dude was a straight monster, wrecking vampires left and right and was just an all around beast.
Finally, someone gets where I'm coming from lol.

[Paradox]

leo619 repeats:

It doesn't have to be an either or issue. As discussed before, Jason Bourne illustrated you can have a dominant bad-a$$ male who laid out people left and right and still have an engaging story.

It CAN, but frankly Jason Bourne being a "beast" isn't at all the point of the story, nor is it even necessary. It seems like many of the people in this thread are all about the fights in comics. That's always been my least favorite part. It's dull to me, one-note. Batman as Bat-God made me not want to read about Batman any more, for instance. I liked him better when he thought his way through his problems and sometimes made mistakes. Human, y'know?