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  1. #2536
    Fantastic Member OutlawGunStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sword is Drawn View Post
    I think that Disassembled *was* necessary, though. While The Avengers certainly wasn't a sales failure in the late 90s and early 2000s it very much felt like it was a comic book from a different age. It was a cliche. Brightly coloured costumed heroes all living in a big mansion, with a butler, and everybody always going on how important it was to be an Avenger but the threats always seeming a little bit ridiculous in a turn of the millennium context. It was the part of the Marvel Universe which felt more at home at DC than in its own home. It was stale, it hadn't changed in any significant way in over 30 years. It was feeling tired.

    I now it seems kinda weird now fore people to think of a time where Marvel's flagship team wasn't the popular choice. Where the X-Men franchise was bigger and much more prominent. But that's where we were back then. And while we can certainly argue that Disassembled wasn't wonderfully handled it sometimes is necessary to ask 'What are the central most important parts of this property?' to tear things down and build it back up.

    New Avengers was a huge draw for me. It was bringing together characters I had wanted to see on a team together for years, and set things in motion for what I truly do believe was the most cohesive and well directed shared universe I have ever seen for Marvel in my lifetime. It was the perfect jumping on point for readers and produced some seriously good few years of stories. I'm happy that it happened.

    In comparison the current Marvel Universe feel very flat and convoluted to me.
    Yeah,who wants FUN from a comic book?Give me Hawkeye dying in a moronic way and Avengers remembering Ultron as their greatest moment.
    So-No.It wasnt neccery to crap all over an excelent run by Busiek and Johns.

  2. #2537
    Spectacular Member milton75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OutlawGunStar View Post
    Yeah,who wants FUN from a comic book?Give me Hawkeye dying in a moronic way and Avengers remembering Ultron as their greatest moment.
    So-No.It wasnt neccery to crap all over an excelent run by Busiek and Johns.
    It wasn't ideal, but let's not pretend one decentish run made the difference to a long period of Avengers mediocrity. The 90s had stuff like The Crossing dragging on, and they'd still never really gotten away from the old nonsense in the 70s and 80s where, dramatically, you'd regularly have folk standing around discussing committees and who should be on "the official Avengers roster". All of that was awful.

  3. #2538
    Fantastic Member OutlawGunStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milton75 View Post
    It wasn't ideal, but let's not pretend one decentish run made the difference to a long period of Avengers mediocrity. The 90s had stuff like The Crossing dragging on, and they'd still never really gotten away from the old nonsense in the 70s and 80s where, dramatically, you'd regularly have folk standing around discussing committees and who should be on "the official Avengers roster". All of that was awful.
    You could say that for any long running title.
    And lets not pretend Bendis made anything better.

  4. #2539
    File Clerk of MI13 The Sword is Drawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milton75 View Post
    Yeah, that's fair enough, and I agree about the direction in the 2000s decade. I don't like other stuff he did though, e.g. I feel is GotG was a real indulgence, and Cosmic Marvel went backwards several steps when DnA stopped working on it.

    That I would agree on. GotG was a bit of a mismatch, in my opinion. Was also quite unsure over the redesigns (which seemed to be part Mass Effect inspired with the armour aesthetic). That seemed particularly odd given that Abnett and Lanning's stuff had been the touchstone for the (at the time) upcoming movie. The change in tone of the books kind of flew in the face of the movie. Iron Man wasn't entirely a terrible fit, but really? He didn't need to be there.


    Quote Originally Posted by milton75 View Post
    The Captain Britain stuff was just annoying. Iron man, wasn't it?

    Iron Man in GotG and a couple of other digs I believe. Largely I suspect because it got a reaction.


    Quote Originally Posted by milton75 View Post
    Agree again. It's not just lazy writing, it's also selfish and conceited. When writers can't be bothered respecting that which has gone before (and which many fans have spend many years and lots of money investing in) because they think they can do a better job (and frequently don't), they show themselves up as being kinds a**holes imo. If you want to write a different character, go self fund your own book and if you're as good as you mistakenly think you are people will buy it regardless. Don't screw something up that was doing just fine for 40 years before you came along.

    Agreed. This is exactly *why* I dislike what guys like Rick Remender have done with several Marvel properties. Scant research. Fixating on one moment of a character's history and trying to reproduce that at all costs, regardless of whether that contradicts years worth of stories.

    It's the belief that the writer knows better. That they don't need to adhere to anything which came before, because their magic touch will make it work.

    It almost never works.

    And in this day and age it is exceptionally rare that after panning a character into floor that the writer will still be on the book to rebuild them from the ground up.


    Quote Originally Posted by milton75 View Post
    I find myself agreeing again - especially with the bit in bold. Characters have always wandered in and out of each other's books in Marvel; it's what makes a shared universe fun. But if you look at the period roughly from 2001 - 2012 this was really carried off with some panache and to a surprising degree. For all that some people were annoyed by the scale and number of big events like Civil War, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign and Siege, they were used to integrate disparate characters in away that I personally hadn't seen achieved before. It helped that there were books like The Initiative that seemed to exist specifically to give lesser-used characters more page-time, but the main titles had more supporting characters being used too. Many "lesser" characters and minor villains had their personalities fleshed out too, and speaking as someone who often likes the minor characters at least as much as the main stars, this was something I appreciated (I'm still sad that Constrictor's path to slight redemption was ruined by a misunderstanding!).
    I really do feel that around 2012 things took a downward turn. Fear Itself was mainly appalling, and there has been less coherence over the past 6 years. They might be heading back to a more shared vision though. Fingers crossed.

    I think that the central problem has been that while it was a very successful approach it really did require an Architect approach. Almost appointing a writer (or a couple of writers) as a producer (or Lead Writer at least) overseeing the whole direction of the companies output for 4-6 months.

    And when that was Bendis, or Hickman, even Millar it worked.

    When it was Matt Fraction or Rick Remender it didn't work quite so well.

    It takes a very talented kind of creator to be able to co-ordinate that, and co-ordinate it well. Not everybody has that skillset. And certainly since Secret Wars wrapped Marvel has been more than a little bit light on people who are capable of that. The big names, the architects and producer types, have left. There are no stand out candidates to replace them.


    Quote Originally Posted by OutlawGunStar View Post
    Yeah,who wants FUN from a comic book?Give me Hawkeye dying in a moronic way and Avengers remembering Ultron as their greatest moment.
    So-No.It wasnt neccery to crap all over an excelent run by Busiek and Johns.
    It depends what you mean by 'FUN'. It's not that either isn't an honest to good great creator, but the stories being told did feel like they were from a different age to much of the rest of the Marvel Universe as it was.

    Change *was* needed.

    I was never a huge fan of what Marvel did with Heroes Reborn, but largely because I'm not a huge fan of Liefeld. But I genuinely did appreciate what they were *trying* to do. To go back to basics, get right to the heart of what was important about those Avengers, without the baggage of how stale the Avengers concept had become. Without keeping those characters firmly trapped in the styling, attitude and tone of the silver age, or (at best) the early 80s.

    Heroes Reborn did get new readers engaging with the characters. It did build an energy and enthusiasm for them which could and should have carried through, via Heroes Return, into their rejoining the Marvel Universe.

    But it just kinda flopped for the Avengers.

    Relaunches of Fantastic Four and Captain America seemed to carry that energy, but the Avengers relaunch pretty much became a testament to Avengers past, rather than pushing forward as something fresh. It wasn't bad, but it was a missed opportunity in my book. Even with the larger stories he book felt very... I don't wan't to say 'safe' per se. But but the threat was never likely to bring about hugely impactful change.

    Granted, Disassembled did literally just tear everything down. But I don't believe there was any specific intention to disrespect the previous creative teams. This was a proper shock and awe strike. An intention to destroy the Avengers and rebuild them from scratch using the founding principles of the team. And in doing that it allowed Marvel to do the one thing which it hadn't been able to for years.

    Rebuild the Avengers as the central flagship title for a shared universe. The highest profile title in the line. Which, ultimately, it should always be.

    So, in that regard, I'd argue Bendis did make something better in the long run.
    It Came From Darkmoor...

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    Twitter: @theswordisdrawn

  5. #2540
    File Clerk of MI13 The Sword is Drawn's Avatar
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    Having spent some time thinking back over the last 15 years worth of Events and storylines did get me thinking. Secret Invasion and House of M aside much of those years really was an exercise in wasted opportunity as far as the British and Irish corner of the Marvel Universe is concerned.

    i.e. We basically didn't see it feature.

    There was a brief moment in Civil War when Storm and T'Challa visited Brian asking him to get involved. That was during the New Excalibur days. But otherwise? Not really. Age of Ultron had the Al Ewing story. Not much else.

    So here's a thought? If any of you were able to have written in a story linking a Marvel UK property into any of the crossover events during that time, how would you have done it?

    As a reminder of what some of those crossovers since Secret Invason were:

    War of Kings
    Necrosha
    Fall of the Hulks
    Siege
    Doomwar
    Realm of Kings
    The Thanos Imperative
    Chaos War
    Fear Itself
    Avengers vs X-Men
    X-Termination
    Infinity
    Original Sin
    AXIS
    The Black Vortex
    Avengers Standoff
    Civil War II
    Secret Empire
    It Came From Darkmoor...

    A Blog dedicated to the British corner of the Marvel Universe.


    Twitter: @theswordisdrawn

  6. #2541
    Spectacular Member milton75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sword is Drawn View Post
    Having spent some time thinking back over the last 15 years worth of Events and storylines did get me thinking. Secret Invasion and House of M aside much of those years really was an exercise in wasted opportunity as far as the British and Irish corner of the Marvel Universe is concerned.

    i.e. We basically didn't see it feature.

    There was a brief moment in Civil War when Storm and T'Challa visited Brian asking him to get involved. That was during the New Excalibur days. But otherwise? Not really. Age of Ultron had the Al Ewing story. Not much else.

    So here's a thought? If any of you were able to have written in a story linking a Marvel UK property into any of the crossover events during that time, how would you have done it?

    As a reminder of what some of those crossovers since Secret Invason were:

    War of Kings
    Necrosha
    Fall of the Hulks
    Siege
    Doomwar
    Realm of Kings
    The Thanos Imperative
    Chaos War
    Fear Itself
    Avengers vs X-Men
    X-Termination
    Infinity
    Original Sin
    AXIS
    The Black Vortex
    Avengers Standoff
    Civil War II
    Secret Empire
    I missed this, but it's a good question. Realistically, only Death's Head fits easily into the cosmic stuff, but would be unlikely to get in the War of Kings/Realm of Kings stories, or those focusing on Thanos. They had casts that were defined by the storylines in question.

    I think that most characters from the UK stable would fit happily into the Civil War/Secret Invasion/Dark Reign/Siege storylines, which I still very much think of as contiguous in all but name.

    You didn't mention Annihilation or Annihilation Conquest, and I think it's worth remembering that Gun Runner played a small role in the Furman-penned Ronan 4-parter in Annihilation.

    This isn't do do with a crossover, but outside of my general DH love, I'd like to see someone follow up on Gillen's use of Dark Angel in Iron Man by having her in a Doctor Strange story. She could have been in the Doctor Strange and the Sorcerers Supreme book and it would have fitted very well, for example.

  7. #2542
    Fantastic Member OutlawGunStar's Avatar
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    Deaths Head for Marvel Cosmic seems obvious.Others were very...US-centered,but I guess you could have worked in a British theathre in Dark Reign,or have an Initiative-like team.Or have Captain Britain in Siege.
    What was Chaos war about again?

  8. #2543
    Astonishing Member Nick Miller's Avatar
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    Chaos war (forgettable) was Thor and Herc fighting different Pantheons/gods.

    (Tapping my iPad)

    Still waiting for a new UK book, Yoshida. With so many great UK writers and artists, WTH IS THE HOLDUP!!!!

  9. #2544
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    Mys-Tech Wars #2 Apr 1993
    "Ignorant Armies"
    Death's Head II wreaks havoc on the UnEarth, disrupting the MyS-TECH immortals' plans,

    while heroes from around the world contend with the immortals' demons.


    Starring Dark Angel, X-Men, Avengers, Spider-Man, Excalibur, Ghost Rider, Motormouth, Killpower, Psycho Warriors, Warheads.

    Script by Dan Abnett. Art by Bryan Hitch, Jeff Anderson & Steve Whitaker.

  10. #2545
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sword is Drawn View Post
    Having spent some time thinking back over the last 15 years worth of Events and storylines did get me thinking. Secret Invasion and House of M aside much of those years really was an exercise in wasted opportunity as far as the British and Irish corner of the Marvel Universe is concerned.

    i.e. We basically didn't see it feature.

    There was a brief moment in Civil War when Storm and T'Challa visited Brian asking him to get involved. That was during the New Excalibur days. But otherwise? Not really. Age of Ultron had the Al Ewing story. Not much else.

    So here's a thought? If any of you were able to have written in a story linking a Marvel UK property into any of the crossover events during that time, how would you have done it?
    Going one further, I think that Mys-tech are/were a great premise (especially having their fingers in pies across time and space) and their becoming prominent or oppressive would have been a great event to have pit the entire Marvel Universe against. I guess, maybe, a little like Mys-tech Wars, but more involved.

    But, yeah, every time I read an event, I wonder what certain MUK heroes would have done if present. Like Death's Head being a player in WWH, or Dark Angel assisting Doctor Strange in Secret Empire.

    Whilst watching Infinity War, I did think a few times "Death's Head II would sort this all out."... !

  11. #2546
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    Mys-Tech Wars #3 May 1993
    "Darkness Visible"
    Heroes die as the Psycho Warriors show no quarter while Wolverine and Captain America battle Motormouth and Killpower.

    They later show up again when Death's Head II and the Warheads confront the MyS-TECH board

    which results in two members of the MyS-TECH board getting slain!

    Starring Dark Angel, Professor X, Psylocke, Hulk, Thor.

    Script by Dan Abnett. Art by Bryan Hitch, Andy Lanning & Steve Whitaker.

  12. #2547
    Fantastic Member Danvidar's Avatar
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    Although it is only a variant look who is in the bottom right of one of the covers to the upcoming West Coast Avengers.
    WCAVEN2018001-RenaudVar.jpg

  13. #2548
    Spectacular Member IzzY World's Avatar
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    "Avengers UK: Volume 4 - Issue 2" is out NOW via the Avengers UK Facebook page....

    AUKv402_01.jpg

    For the actual FREE comic , see the link:
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=d5814ba7b8
    Please press 'Like' on the page itself and access this and ALL the free AVENGERS UK comics !
    For more CAPTAIN BRITAIN and MARVEL UK action - see the FREE fan-fiction comic - AVENGERS UK - see https://www.facebook.com/avengersukbywillow

  14. #2549
    Astonishing Member Silvermoth's Avatar
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    I saw dax exclamation mark posted this, thought it might give some of you a kick

    D589CC83-C280-41DE-87B4-814EAB7594A2.jpg

  15. #2550
    Spectacular Member IzzY World's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danvidar View Post
    Although it is only a variant look who is in the bottom right of one of the covers to the upcoming West Coast Avengers.
    WCAVEN2018001-RenaudVar.jpg
    he's not in the issue but nice to see him acknowledged
    For more CAPTAIN BRITAIN and MARVEL UK action - see the FREE fan-fiction comic - AVENGERS UK - see https://www.facebook.com/avengersukbywillow

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