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[Captain Wessex]

Mad Jim's take over occurred in a time-skip. Thought that was obvious from when Meggan's talking to the other woman about Captain Britain. It happened off-panel between issues.

[The Sword is Drawn]

I enjoyed the DeLano run, it was one of my favorite sh runs and CB is a temperamental bully. I even found loads more examples of his violent tantrums. It was not limited to Meggan! Claremont did not come up with that out of nowhere.

There's a vast difference between grumpiness, or frustration at increasingly ridiculous situations, then being a 'bully'.

I would refute that claim 100%, and I suspect that the majority of Captain Britain writers would too.

But I suspect that, as several regulars on the X-Boards are determined to, if you want to read something in? You will. That would be your superimposition though.

By missing scenes, I literally mean that. It read like a rough draft with no transitions. What was Arcade doing? Jaspers suggests the registration, then all of a sudden it's the camps. Not saying I did not like it, but it's hardly strong writing. If it were not for Moore having the characters explain all the missing events, it would be messier. I am even wondering if Alan Davis was not the actual plotter/writer behind it.

I think there are two factors on play here which you may or may not be aware of.

Firstly, part of that is intentional. The world changes in the blink of an eye. How? Why? Because of Jaspers. He has literally rewritten the fabric of reality, behind the scenes. Much like Wanda Maximoff did during House of M. We're talking about a similar level of reality warping going on.

Secondly though you've also got to understand the pacing here. We're talking about a story which has been written for the UK market, as part of an anthology title. That's why each chapter is shorter than an American market issue. The pacing and break-up of those chapters is typical of stories for that market. It's not designed to repeat or re-explain itself each chapter.

Because a) There is limited space to do that and b) It would be considered patronising to the reader.

[Loki]

I enjoyed the DeLano run, it was one of my favorite sh runs and CB is a temperamental bully. I even found loads more examples of his violent tantrums. It was not limited to Meggan! Claremont did not come up with that out of nowhere.

Okay, since you claim there are instances in the Delano run that demonstrate CB being a temperamental bully with violent tantrums, but have failed to actually cite specific evidence, let's do a little checking. The Delano run is really only some of the stories in the monthly Captain Britain title, but let's be generous and expand that to include all the post-Moore, pre-Excalibur issues - so, MWoM #14-16, followed by Captain Britain #1-14. And I hope most would agree that there is a big difference between a tantrum (immaturely throwing a strop because of some insignificant incident that has gotten on your nerves) and a rage (quite understandably losing your temper because someone has, for example, nearly killed your sister and has permanently and painfully blinded her by sticking his fingers into her sockets to rip the eyeballs out). There are a few times Brian gets provoked by others into a rage.

MWoM #14 - CB meets and fights Meggan. There's an initial and very brief skirmish as CB comes to the aid of Sidney Crumb, who is being attacked by a moon-maddened Meggan. Since he's coming to the defense of someone under attack, I don't think anyone could reasonably claim this was bullying or a violent tantrum. He then tries to find out what he had just encountered, and follows Meggan into a warehouse. He calls out that he just wants to talk, then runs into her friends Mickey and Josie Scott, who tell him about Meggan. He grabs Mickey when he first appears (not unreasonable considering the circumstances - he's in a darkened warehouse with a potentially hostile and very fast moving creature, so he reacts instinctively to a sudden nearby noise), but Brian is in no way throwing his weight around or looking for a fight. Instead, he defends himself when Meggan attacks him again. Despite Mickey's unfortunate death when the pair dislodge scaffolding during their tussle, there is no evidence of being temperamental, bullying or violent tantrums.

MWoM #15 - CB has been spending day and night fighting crime trying to make recompense for Mickey's death. He visits Mickey's family to apologise to them (very much the action of a temperamental bully...not). He meets Meggan under better circumstances, and no fight kicks off, because he's not having any violent tantrums. The pair of them fight extradimensional hunters working for Sat-Yr-Nin, but they didn't start the fight, they just responded to being attacked. And Brian offers to let Meggan stay at his home while he helps her find her parents, because that's what temperamental bullies do - they take in people who were recently their opponents because they see past the monstrous-looking surface and realise there's a good person who needs help there.

MWoM #16 - The only fight is when Brian is again attacked unprovoked by extradimensional hunters.

CB #1 - Brian again demonstrates what a violent tantruming bully he is by spending the issue chatting with Betsy, asking after the health of Alison Double, and introspectively wondering about his origins and adventures as Captain Britain.

CB #2 - Okay, the first time in the Davis/Delano run where CB acts in any sort of anger when facing his opponents, but the context is important. He's confronted by the fact that the Crazy Gang are still around, when he thought that they would have vanished with all the other remnants of Jasper's Warp. That they still exist is a very unpleasant reminder of a horrible time of chaos. They are Jaspers' creations, utterly amoral, and he really doesn't like them. So he's angry when he faces them. But is he being temperamental? Bullying them? Having a tantrum? Hardly - he just doesn't like them very much.

CB #3 - having been captured by Slaymaster and had his costume stolen, CB uses his ability to remotely control the costume via his helmet to smash Slaymaster against a few walls. Considering that Slaymaster is a murdering sleeze, I don't think we can count this as bullying.

CB #4 - Brian beats the mutated Sidney Crumb to death. However, Brian didn't know it was Sidney, and thought it was some variation on the Fury, the most lethal killing machine he's ever encountered, so while poor Sidney didn't deserve this, it's a tragic misunderstanding rather than Brian being a bully or having a violent tantrum.

CB #5 - fights his doppelganger Kaptain Briton. Again, not seeing bully here - they are evenly matched, and Kaptain Briton is in Brian's home, endangering Brian's loved ones.

CB #6 - Brian does shout aggresively at Gatecrasher and the Technet. However, since they kidnapped him from his own reality and left the dangerous doppelganger unattended with Brian's loved ones, I think being a bit hacked off is understandable. So, raised voice when understandably annoyed at someone, but no bullying nor tantruming.

CB #7 - Brian argues with Betsy. Bullying? Hardly - the debate is over whether or not they can trust Mastermind. Given it's tried to kill him twice, Brian's wary stance is understandable, and exacerbated because he's stressed over recent events (everything he's endured since issue 2 - being captured, imprisoned, fighting Sidney, fighting KB, abducted to another reality, and now told his father was from Otherworld, has all happened in little more than one to two days); Betsy, who never directly fought the computer (she only faced it via its pawn, Dr. Synne), is more willing to give it a chance, and gives as good as she gets. So no bullying, nor violent tantruming. He is in a foul mood by the end and when Mastermind reports intruders approaching, Brian says he is in the mood for a fight, which I suppose you could argue is the precursor to a violent tantrum is you wanted, except...

CB #8 - that Brian greets the intruders courteously, invites them in and enquires why they have dropped by so late and unannounced. Brian clearly has a lot to learn about how to have a proper bullying violent tantrum. Brian's temper does start to rise when, after he declines to give their shifty looking government department his facilities and public backing, RCX make it clear they intend to take his home by force if he refuses, and to do so by exploiting superpowered children. I think it isn't unreasonable to get a bit annoyed at that, and note, this is annoyed, not violent, nor tantruming.

CB #9 - Brian fights the Cherubim, and does get pretty violent when Lump confronts him with an illusion that he is facing the Fury. Tantrum? Perhaps, if you really stretch the definition, and even if you count it as such, you've got the exact same excessively violent reactions from Betsy and Captain UK - they all go into violent overdrive when confronted with what appears to be Mad Jim Jaspers or a Fury. RCX move in, against his wishes but with Betsy's approval - he's such a bully that he lets her overrule him. He spends a couple of days putting up with sharing his home with government agents he (rightly) mistrusts and dozens of children underfoot. His mood is poor by this point, but he's clearly not bullying nor violent towards the Warpies, who show zero fear of him.

CB #10 - he's fairly violent as he invades the Emperor's Compound in Mbangawi to rescue his brother from Dr. Crocodile, but since he thinks his brother is being held by an evil, torturing despot, attacking said despot's guards isn't unreasonable. Again, no bullying, no tantruming.

CB #11 - Though Baba Yaga attacks him, CB doesn't even fight this issue. Meggan handles that. Again, no evidence of bullying nor tantrums.

CB #12 - CB is rude to Gatecrasher, but given she's got a history of kidnapping him and has just done so again, it would be hard to count this as bullying. He does react with anger when he returns home to find Betsy has replaced him in his absence and is working for RCX, but his violence starts and ends with him crushing his own helmet and quitting.

CB #13 - definitely violent, berserk even, when he fights and kills Slaymaster, but I don't think losing composure over someone who has beaten his sibling to a pulp and ripped their eyes out can really be said to be "temperamental" nor "bullying." Oh, he does injure Agent Michael; considering Michael was no threat to him and Brian deliberately slammed him into a wall, it might be argued that this was bullying, but considering Michael had sent Betsy out to face Slaymaster without backing, and, when she was brought back hideously injured, Michael began loudly proclaiming that she was expendable, he frankly deserved it.

CB #14 - fights and kills Silver Death, a killer Warpie that has slain several people. Again, no bullying, nor tantrums.

That's the entire run. Brian's worst behaviour occurs during the couple of days when the Warpies move into Braddock Manor, and amounts to a simmering bad mood, not unreasonable for a man whose home has been invaded. He only ever gets violent when attacked or in defense of others. He never tries to threaten or intimidate others to do as he wants (e.g. no bullying). He's remarkably level headed considering what he is going through, not temperamental. So "temperamental bully" or "violent tantrums"? Not so much.

[The Sword is Drawn]

Thanks, Loki. That's pretty conclusive, I'd say.

Yeah. I just don't see the Bully aspect at all.

[Captain Wessex]

Captain Wessex wants to know if you guys have any plans for some very obscure -- at least in the United States -- Marvel characters.

You're bringing Death's Head to "X-Men '92" (woohoo, yes?) but is there any chance of any more Marvel UK characters getting "92"-ised (is that what we're calling it?), like Dark Angel, Black Axe or perhaps most importantly, Psylocke's brother Captain Britain?

Bowers: Hey, Wessex! We definitely have plans for Excalibur '92, and as you might expect, our version of the team ends up looking a bit different from the one you're used to. I love Excalibur, and was a big fan of the '90s Marvel UK books, so yeah, melding those two together is kind of a no-brainer. Excalibur is to the X-Men as the Defenders are to the Avengers -- they're related as much as they're apart, and with that in mind, we've taken that concept to the Nth degree in '92, and I can't wait for you to see what we do!

asked and answered. Good news, yes?

[The Sword is Drawn]

asked and answered. Good news, yes?

Interesting...

Has that DH issue hit, yet?

[Captain Wessex]

no, not yet. Supposedly it's out the end of August

[Alex_Jamieson]

Hi everyone,

Jordan White (who is a Captain Britain fan) answered my question about Brian on his Tumblr

http://jordandwhiteqna.tumblr.com/po...-suppose-youve

[Panic]

Thanks, Loki. That's pretty conclusive, I'd say.

Yeah. I just don't see the Bully aspect at all.

I can see it. I don't think it's a justified complaint, but I can see where it starts, especially if your first experience of CB is Excalibur.

Davis has always liked to draw CB angry and aggressive, with one of his iconic poses being angrily pointing his finger at someone. It is very aggressive, very dominating, and if you're not already on-board with the character, if you don't already like him, I can see it might be a little threatening. Back in the Moore years Brian used to lose his temper, but always in situations where the reader could empathise - Jackdaw being killed, finding out that the person he was expected to help was the one that left him and Jackdaw to die on the crooked world, the blatant unfairness of Saturnyne's trial... he acts on anger a lot, but it's not bullying. I'd actually argue that Moore had Brian evolve and conquer that tendency by The Candlelight Dialogues, but that's a discussion for another time.

In the Davis/Delano stories he tends to be more stupidly aggressive - a whole bunch of times he acts on anger when we as the reader are less able to empathise with him and are made aware it's the wrong course of action, eg Cap charging in on the Crazy Gang, who the reader is aware are more clueless dupes than evil (CB not really having interacted with this newborn Crazy Gang obviously assumes they're like their 238 counterparts, who appeared less goofy and more intelligently malevolent). Alan Davis loves to draw Brian angry, and he's really good at it. I think it's really easy to take things out of context if you're already biased against the character.


Brian DOES beat on a relatively helpless Jamie in the above. It's much less than, say, when Spider-Man beat an already defeated Sin Eater, but if you're already of a mind that Brian is the ass Claremont portrayed him as in Excalibur it's only going to reinforce that feeling.

Generally I'd argue that CB doesn't do anything (in his solo book) that most super-heroes don't do regularly, it's just that where the writer normally makes sure that the reader empathises with the hero and makes it obvious that his/her actions are justified, in the CB strip you're never hit over the head with how awesome and justified the hero is - and that's one of the things I've always loved about it.

[The Sword is Drawn]

Hi everyone,

Jordan White (who is a Captain Britain fan) answered my question about Brian on his Tumblr

http://jordandwhiteqna.tumblr.com/po...-suppose-youve

Interesting.

Providing it's categorically not a book or story replacing Brian as Captain Britain with anybody else (at which point I probably would probably just quit Marvel entirely for a while, tbh) I'd be interested.

I can see it. I don't think it's a justified complaint, but I can see where it starts, especially if your first experience of CB is Excalibur.

Davis has always liked to draw CB angry and aggressive, with one of his iconic poses being angrily pointing his finger at someone. It is very aggressive, very dominating, and if you're not already on-board with the character, if you don't already like him, I can see it might be a little threatening.

Yes. As I've said before, context is key. Davis' art is arguably melodramatic by modern standards, but when her draws heroes fighting its always thus. Aggressive and dominating is about right - be it that he's drawing Cap, or Wolverine, Or Superman or Batman. That's his style.

I wouldn't say that marks Brian out as a thug any more than those other characters. But I guess if this is a reader looking at the character for the first time it genuinely is plausible that they would read things in very differently.

Back in the Moore years Brian used to lose his temper, but always in situations where the reader could empathise - Jackdaw being killed, finding out that the person he was expected to help was the one that left him and Jackdaw to die on the crooked world, the blatant unfairness of Saturnyne's trial... he acts on anger a lot, but it's not bullying. I'd actually argue that Moore had Brian evolve and conquer that tendency by The Candlelight Dialogues, but that's a discussion for another time.

Indeed. I agree, though. That's a character going up against what he perceives to be Wrong, and reacting with justified anger at that wrong. Saturnyne's Trial is a stitch-up - he's right to intervene. Jaspers Concentration Camps are absolutely wrong - he's right to get involved.

It's justified action, without a doubt.

In the Davis/Delano stories he tends to be more stupidly aggressive - a whole bunch of times he acts on anger when we as the reader are less able to empathise with him and are made aware it's the wrong course of action, eg Cap charging in on the Crazy Gang, who the reader is aware are more clueless dupes than evil (CB not really having interacted with this newborn Crazy Gang obviously assumes they're like their 238 counterparts, who appeared less goofy and more intelligently malevolent).

Yes. In that case it is perhaps a rash action. It's understandable. There is still a level of traumatisation from the Jaspers' Warp. At face value these were some of the last faces he saw before he died. But in this case the reader knows that its poor judgement, because they've seen that this Crazy Gang are actually a bit inept. Brian has not.

Alan Davis loves to draw Brian angry, and he's really good at it. I think it's really easy to take things out of context if you're already biased against the character.

Ad I honesty think that in a lot of cases that simply is what some people do. Sure, yes, there is always a dramatic aggression to much of Davis' art, but in context it mostly makes sense. You'd have to remove it from that context to interpret it differently.

Brian DOES beat on a relatively helpless Jamie in the above. It's much less than, say, when Spider-Man beat an already defeated Sin Eater, but if you're already of a mind that Brian is the ass Claremont portrayed him as in Excalibur it's only going to reinforce that feeling.

Yes. And its also worth considering that this is his Brother, here. Brothers fight. I should know, I have one myself. And love him as much as I do, we always have (and probably always will) fought.

Brian has just found out that his older Brother, the guy he looked up to for much of his life, is in fact involved in what certainly implies to be illegal Slave Trading and plausible sexual trafficking.

Is a guy with super strength punching somebody like this a little dangerous? Yes. But is thumping your Brother, as you may have done many a time in your life, over finding out he's been involved with such hideous things inexplicable? I don't think so. Within that context it's not the exactly illogical behavior.

Maybe not the wisest of behavior, but certainly not illogical.

Generally I'd argue that CB doesn't do anything (in his solo book) that most super-heroes don't do regularly, it's just that where the writer normally makes sure that the reader empathises with the hero and makes it obvious that his/her actions are justified, in the CB strip you're never hit over the head with how awesome and justified the hero is - and that's one of the things I've always loved about it.

Agreed. And I think to a certain degree that's a bit 'lost in translation'. In US comics sometimes we do go overboard trying to hammer a heroic point home. To overclarify.

Now I don't know whether its just because some of the Captain Britain stories of this era aren't US length (being written in part for anthology books) but I also think that in general British writers often do not feel the need to over-egg the pudding quite so much in this area.

[The Sword is Drawn]

Am I alone in getting tired with people suggesting alternative people who should be given the Captain Britain mantle this year? Because it sometimes feels that way.

Cullen Bunn talking about his wanting to give the title to Betsy.

Comics Alliance publishing massive articles on how it has to Faiza now. Even though a lot of the supporters of that notion don't seem to realise that the Faiza they are looking at there is AU character.

You know I don't object to the concept of Brian eventually making Faiza the Captain for 616 while he runs Otherworld. But right now what I object to is this notion that we just flat out ignore what Hickman set up before Secret Wars, that we ignore the 40th anniversary, and just slash and burn the lot.

That would be exceptionally lazy writing. It would probably be the first Captain Britain run I wouldn't buy, either.

[Panic]

You're not alone, predictably I too feel like ranting on this subject.

Much like you I don't object to Faiza taking the name, but it's more that I think Brian (and us, his fans) have been screwed over a lot an treated without much respect, and this does kind of feel like yet another stick to beat the character with. After years of waiting to see Brian portrayed by American writers as smart and competent to no avail, I have no doubt that if Faiza takes the mantle they will lose no time in making her ultra competent and sympathetic. I've seen what's happened to Thor and this is par for the course at the moment. There has been a basic trend in Marvel for years now that alpha-male representatives of other cultures tend to be given aggressively arrogant macho personalities and are shown to be largely wrong-headed and ineffective, and then are often swapped out for ultra-competent and reasonable female versions that presumably are less threatening to the current crop of male American writers (Sunfire being replaced by Sunpyre is just one example that springs to mind). I'd really like to see a competent and reasonable version of Brian from Marvel US.

[The Whovian]

Nope, not just you. Brian is THE Captain Britain. And I don't want anyone else wearing the mantle, unless they're from the Corps and are an alternate CB.

[Danvidar]

It is not just you, but given what Marvel seem to be doing at the moment it would not surprise me if they do.

[milton75]

It is not just you, but given what Marvel seem to be doing at the moment it would not surprise me if they do.

This. It wouldn't even come up if it wasn't for the endemic laziness at Marvel. They, and the self-indulgent hacks they seem to favour, would rather write a new (or newish) character "from scratch" rather than take on the greater challenge of taking an existing (and perhaps under-popular) character and devoting real time and energy into developing a decent ongoing for them.

Hence a new Giant Man. A new Quasar. A new Nova. etc. The whole dynamic is tiresome in the extreme.