Britain Prevails! Marvel UK lives here...

[Tazirai]

As a participant in THAT conversation, I'd prefer the MCU Captains Britain movie be a twin heroes film.

Agreed. I'd love for her being a Captain Britain of somewhat lesser power since she'd also have her Psychic gifts to fall on.

Though if the director, and writers are British that would increase a more comic accurate leaning movie.

Agreed and a writer with a deep history and love for the source of both the comic and the lore of the isles.

I appreciate that you have both Brian and Betsy as heroes, however...


You've got Betsy as a cool super-spy doing missions, whilst Brian is not only a drunk, but a drunk who drives while drunk! And the progress Brian makes is all accidental, not realising what he's done in the first instance, whilst getting his vision by being stupid, irresponsible, and incompetent, whilst Betsy's progress is through deliberate action and skill. You've made Betsy much cooler than she was, whilst Brian's origin has gone from a daring escape from terrorists to a drunken misadventure. And this is precisely what I'm worried about, the fact that in the US comics (or at least the ones written by American writers) Betsy gets positive development while Brian gets negative development, with any flaws being magnified and strengths eliminated. I get that you're not doing it deliberately, but yikes, it's pretty horrible, and pretty much par for the course under American writers.

Casting-wise, I like Lily James for Betsy (Pride and Prejudice and Zombies is underrated, imo); Theo James I thought was great in Divergent, but I'd rather the actor be blonde, and I think he'd look weird blonde. I don't know who I'd pick for Brian.

Stay away from Brian being a drunk. Alan Davis had to reign in Claremont with that crap earlier. It was too annoying. He was also only a drunk because he thought his sister was dead and he was at fault.

[CRaymond]

And the progress Brian makes is all accidental, not realising what he's done in the first instance, whilst getting his vision by being stupid, irresponsible, and incompetent, whilst Betsy's progress is through deliberate action and skill.

I'm assuming you realize Brian is a LOT more like Stark and Strange than he is Rogers. MCU hero movies ALWAYS confront the hero's fallibility and weaknesses, and in Brian's case it's his ego, envy, hubris, overconfidence, inflexibility and impulsiveness. On paper, Brian Braddock is a terrible cad, but over time, he overcomes all that to become a symbolic superhero. I figured all that would be explicit in what I wrote. His alcoholism is a factor in his character, but even that is a salve for a bigger issue that he struggles with. Otherwise it's a boring movie.

Yeah Theo's a bit of a model-actor... but I want Brian to be someone who's model hot, and given all the privileges that go along with being ridiculously attractive, aristocratic old-money, phenomenally intelligent, and physically imposing... And then he has to prove worthy of that privilege with a severe responsibility.

I'm very willing to go on, but I don't want to bore.

[Loki]

I'm assuming you realize Brian is a LOT more like Stark and Strange than he is Rogers. MCU hero movies ALWAYS confront the hero's fallibility and weaknesses, and in Brian's case it's his ego, envy, hubris, overconfidence, inflexibility and impulsiveness. On paper, Brian Braddock is a terrible cad, but over time, he overcomes all that to become a symbolic superhero. I figured all that would be explicit in what I wrote. His alcoholism is a factor in his character, but even that is a salve for a bigger issue that he struggles with. Otherwise it's a boring movie.

No, you've got Brian completely wrong. To use your example, he is way, way more Rogers than Stark or Strange, though frankly he's closest to Peter Parker in terms of self doubt with Rogers' sense of duty. He's not an alcoholic and has never been one, so that is not any sort of factor. I'd agree on impulsive, a degree of inflexibility and periods of overconfidence (since he is extremely powerful), but not ego, envy or hubris. Does that mean he's never, ever shown those traits? No, every human shows aspects of those from time to time. But they are not common to him, and certainly don't define who he normally is. He's a man desperately aware of his own flaws, thrust into an insane world that he never asked for, but which he has gradually come to terms with, and which he stuck with out of an overwhelming sense of duty. If any one story can define him, and captures how he thinks, it is Tea and Sympathy, where he goes to apologise to the family of a boy who died as a result of one of his battles. That sense of duty, of "I've been given this immense power and iconic role, now I have to live up to it," is why he takes Betsy's death so hard prior to the formation of Excalibur - never mind he was half a world away and there is no way he could have helped, he still feels responsible for letting her down, feels he should have been able to do something, anything, and in his grief at losing his sibling he's blaming himself, punishing himself, tormenting himself.

[Panic]

I'm assuming you realize Brian is a LOT more like Stark and Strange than he is Rogers. MCU hero movies ALWAYS confront the hero's fallibility and weaknesses, and in Brian's case it's his ego, envy, hubris, overconfidence, inflexibility and impulsiveness. On paper, Brian Braddock is a terrible cad, but over time, he overcomes all that to become a symbolic superhero. I figured all that would be explicit in what I wrote. His alcoholism is a factor in his character, but even that is a salve for a bigger issue that he struggles with. Otherwise it's a boring movie.

I don't even know where to start with that. Brian was an oversensitive intellectual damaged by his parents' accidental death, making him somewhat introverted and leading him to be bullied by macho types such as Jacko Tanner, who considered him a milksop (I don't even know what that is). This is all in the early issues. No alcoholism, ego, or any of that crap - he was a fairly straightforward superhero power-fantasy based on the Spider-Man/Peter Parker model. And you know, normally American writers at the time tended to write British males as pompous and old-fashioned, usually very upperclass and either wimpy or arrogant, so it was nice to get a British hero who was cool and got to do cool stuff.

In the Moore issues the character was written as more complicated. Sometimes impulsive, sometimes stubborn, nearly always thrown in at the deep end, and continually caught in the machinations of forces more powerful and better informed than himself. Complex? Yes. A little flawed? Yes. Always a good guy, though, and a hero. That's who he was written to be - a hero for the British Marvel fans.

And there is a basic theme that runs through Moore's issues (and indeed the later Delano/Davis ones, too): no-one is perfect, and everyone who is overconfident gets slapped down. You see it again and again: Brian against the Fury "You're pretty tough, chum, but ..."(gets slapped down), Saturnyne mocking Brian's performance against the Fury (her Avante Guard doesn't even get its attention), Wardog doing the same thing (gets arm ripped-off seconds later, Legion killed), Slaymaster mocks Brian's defeat (flies headfirst into wall), even Merlyn is not immune(chess game goes to hell, hands burned, dies), and of course Betsy is overconfident against Slaymaster (gets blinded). This is a basic theme of Moore's Captain Britain strip, and though later US writers chose to take bits out of context to say that Brian is overconfident and arrogant, this was pretty much everybody in the strip.

In US Marvel we've seen him written as a stereotype of the British upper-class male, written for an American audience who wants to see the character slapped down. So we have an aspirational and empowering hero created to represent the British audience, that developed fans after an award winning comic-strip which developed the character and mythology, brought down low by American writers, and kept down there. Do you not see how that is problematic?

MCU hero movies ALWAYS confront the hero's fallibility and weaknesses

You don't see Tony Stark's alcoholism for a reason. It's too much, and besides, it didn't crop up until decades after Iron Man was created.

And what were Steve Rogers' flaws again? He is a hero without flaws, yet audiences like him and find him interesting, and particularly American audiences absolutely love him, and with him being a flawless, empowering hero that represents them, it's not difficult to see why.

And where are Betsy's flaws that she is overcoming? As she is as privileged in upbringing as Brian, plus is popular, beautiful, and powerful, doesn't that make her story "boring".

You don't have to make Brian the jerk that Claremont turned him into in Excalibur to make him interesting. I've had far too much of that from American writers, and it stinks.

[Tazirai]

I don't even know where to start with that. Brian was an oversensitive intellectual damaged by his parents' accidental death, making him somewhat introverted and leading him to be bullied by macho types such as Jacko Tanner, who considered him a milksop (I don't even know what that is). This is all in the early issues. No alcoholism, ego, or any of that crap - he was a fairly straightforward superhero power-fantasy based on the Spider-Man/Peter Parker model. And you know, normally American writers at the time tended to write British males as pompous and old-fashioned, usually very upperclass and either wimpy or arrogant, so it was nice to get a British hero who was cool and got to do cool stuff.

In the Moore issues the character was written as more complicated. Sometimes impulsive, sometimes stubborn, nearly always thrown in at the deep end, and continually caught in the machinations of forces more powerful and better informed than himself. Complex? Yes. A little flawed? Yes. Always a good guy, though, and a hero. That's who he was written to be - a hero for the British Marvel fans.

And there is a basic theme that runs through Moore's issues (and indeed the later Delano/Davis ones, too): no-one is perfect, and everyone who is overconfident gets slapped down. You see it again and again: Brian against the Fury "You're pretty tough, chum, but ..."(gets slapped down), Saturnyne mocking Brian's performance against the Fury (her Avante Guard doesn't even get its attention), Wardog doing the same thing (gets arm ripped-off seconds later, Legion killed), Slaymaster mocks Brian's defeat (flies headfirst into wall), even Merlyn is not immune(chess game goes to hell, hands burned, dies), and of course Betsy is overconfident against Slaymaster (gets blinded). This is a basic theme of Moore's Captain Britain strip, and though later US writers chose to take bits out of context to say that Brian is overconfident and arrogant, this was pretty much everybody in the strip.

In US Marvel we've seen him written as a stereotype of the British upper-class male, written for an American audience who wants to see the character slapped down. So we have an aspirational and empowering hero created to represent the British audience, that developed fans after an award winning comic-strip which developed the character and mythology, brought down low by American writers, and kept down there. Do you not see how that is problematic?


You don't see Tony Stark's alcoholism for a reason. It's too much, and besides, it didn't crop up until decades after Iron Man was created.

And what were Steve Rogers' flaws again? He is a hero without flaws, yet audiences like him and find him interesting, and particularly American audiences absolutely love him, and with him being a flawless, empowering hero that represents them, it's not difficult to see why.

And where are Betsy's flaws that she is overcoming? As she is as privileged in upbringing as Brian, plus is popular, beautiful, and powerful, doesn't that make her story "boring".

You don't have to make Brian the jerk that Claremont turned him into in Excalibur to make him interesting. I've had far too much of that from American writers, and it stinks.

Great post.

Betsy's biggest flaw aligned somewhat with Brians. She may have the looks, and the drive, but she has always proven vulnerable to outside control, and it wasn't written by a writer who hated her. It was given to her by her creators.
Betsy has always been subject to the whims of others and less her own agency, even when it seemed like her own agency. Like you said Overconfidence is a flaw with many from the Isles in the Marvel UK books.
Betsy, while being a powerful Psychic is subject to being Mind Controlled a LOT, she also seemed to love being under the control of another as she would often learn to use her powers in new ways after it wore off or she fought it off.

She also had an issue where no matter what she had times where she didn't think she was good enough to save someone or herself.
It seems like the Braddocks have this issue a lot. Even before Jamie discovered his powers, He and Betsy were basically the Damsels in distress for a good while.
Jamie wanted to protect his siblings, but just couldn't.

I think that dynamic would be good to explore.

I hate making Brian a jerk. It's not needed.

[CRaymond]

And what were Steve Rogers' flaws again?

His faith is his fatal flaw. In each film, his circle of where he places his faith shrinks further and further.

In FA, his faith in the USA is broken when he is turned into a revenue stream.
In WS, his faith in SHIELD is broken when they are revealed to be HYDRA.
In CW, his faith in the Avengers is broken when they acquiesce to the Sokovia Accords.

[Tazirai]

His faith is his fatal flaw. In each film, his circle of where he places his faith shrinks further and further.

In FA, his faith in the USA is broken when he is turned into a revenue stream.
In WS, his faith in SHIELD is broken when they are revealed to be HYDRA.
In CW, his faith in the Avengers is broken when they acquiesce to the Sokovia Accords.

I agree with this and would add, that being a man out of time he misses his old life, and would love to go back to that.
It's apart of him that surfaces a lot in the films.

[Panic]

His faith is his fatal flaw. In each film, his circle of where he places his faith shrinks further and further.

In FA, his faith in the USA is broken when he is turned into a revenue stream.
In WS, his faith in SHIELD is broken when they are revealed to be HYDRA.
In CW, his faith in the Avengers is broken when they acquiesce to the Sokovia Accords.

That is not a character flaw. These are not occasions where Steve makes bad decisions based on sins like pride, selfishness, arrogance, stubbornness etc. In FA the army doesn't want Steve to fight, they want him to stay home safe where they can study him in order to reverse engineer the super-soldier formula, but Steve knows he is best used in the field. Steve is proved right. In WS, SHIELD is revealed to have been compromised by Hydra, so Steve opposes them. Steve is shown to be right to do so. In CW Steve doesn't want to sign the Sokovia Accords, and the film clearly feels he has made the right call.

These are all "Cap was right" situations. Cap doesn't recognise the authority of orders he doesn't agree with, and the narrative always supports Steve's view. Captain America always represents the best of America, and functions as a salve to make Americans feel better about any real-world issues where America comes across badly; if the US government have done something morally dubious, Captain America is used to say "those guys aren't the American people, Cap is!" Americans can stand tall and proud and not have to feel sullied by real-world decisions or policies, because Cap is your guy, not those government types who make the country look bad. And Cap has no horrible flaws that will make you hang your head in shame.

None of the examples you have listed have Steve stubbornly clinging to faith in those in authority past the point where he is clearly stupid or irresponsible to do so; Steve doesn't continue to place his trust in SHIELD, for example, when he shown evidence that they have become corrupted, he doesn't continue to follow orders against the pleas of those who know better at the cost of lives lost. He never does the wrong thing for the wrong reason. Steve is 100% Feel-Good for his fanbase, and there is no having to feel shame in your hero as Steve is never shown to represent the worst aspects of America, or the outside world's negative idea of who an American is.

None of that is a bad thing, he's a hero and super-heroes are supposed to make their fanbase feel good and empowered. But it should go for other heroes and their fanbases too.

[Digifiend]

New British team launching!
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02...unches-empyre/

[Panic]

Doesn't mean much to me without Brian involved. Chamber would have been nice, too.

[Digifiend]

Chamber's busy in New Mutants. As far as I can tell, apart from Union Jack, this team is all newbies - the girl with the sword and shield is probably a new Lionheart. Still, it'll be nice to have another book set in the UK, other than Excalibur which spends a lot of time in Otherworld and Krakoa.

[Noek]

Chamber's busy in New Mutants. As far as I can tell, apart from Union Jack, this team is all newbies - the girl with the sword and shield is probably a new Lionheart. Still, it'll be nice to have another book set in the UK, other than Excalibur which spends a lot of time in Otherworld and Krakoa.

I think the girl in the far back is Meggan.

[Knightmare]

Chamber's busy in New Mutants. As far as I can tell, apart from Union Jack, this team is all newbies - the girl with the sword and shield is probably a new Lionheart. Still, it'll be nice to have another book set in the UK, other than Excalibur which spends a lot of time in Otherworld and Krakoa.

Could that shield be similar to Captain Midlands?



Also I trying to find the comic where Merlin talks about the Braddock family and explains to Roma(i think), why Jamie and Betsy were never chosen to be Captain Britain. Does anyone know it?

[Panic]

Also I trying to find the comic where Merlin talks about the Braddock family and explains to Roma(i think), why Jamie and Betsy were never chosen to be Captain Britain. Does anyone know it?

I'm not sure. You might be misremembering "Thing Fall Apart" from Captain Britain #7. In that, Mastermind tells Brian and Betsy that their father came from Otherworld, and that the Otherworld genes were subverted in Jamie; he doesn't say why Brian was picked to be CB, or why Betsy wasn't.

[Knightmare]

I'm not sure. You might be misremembering "Thing Fall Apart" from Captain Britain #7. In that, Mastermind tells Brian and Betsy that their father came from Otherworld, and that the Otherworld genes were subverted in Jamie; he doesn't say why Brian was picked to be CB, or why Betsy wasn't.

Yeah I'm probably misremembering it, I'll check out that issue.