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  1. #46
    Greetings, Chicken!!! Mantis Girl 94's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    Namor at this point becomes a savage monster, launching a one man war against the surface world. He invades the Statue of Liberty claiming it as his headquarters. Its like an immature teenager with the power of a god launching a temper tantrum against the human race. He causes several catastrophies. At this point I'm not sure how can he ever be trusted. The policemen don't know how to handle him and go ask for help from Betty Dean who Namor still feels betrayed from. He comes to her and she pleads him to leave the city that she is afraid for him as the Human Torch has joined the police and he will come for him next. This sets up the first team up / crossover appearance (with Original Human Torch) that created the concept of a shared Marvel Universe.

    WOW, is all I have to say... this is great GA comic writing, but also shocking! I am in Awe of Bill E., how he would dare to write a character (a hero to his people) that killed so many is only a few panels of art. As my dad would say; "Bill had some Balls"! 3 in the torch of lady liberty, and dozens probably in the ferry boat, all dead!

    To be honest though, as a kid in 1939/1940 my eyes would of been glued to each panel and I would of been mad but also excited and thrilled at this avenger of the deep...

    Can't say anymore....thank you Thor-Ey; I am speechless......

  2. #47
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    After reading Marvel Mystery Comics #7 I realize when Stan Lee took over most of these horrible acts depicted here by Namor must have been retconned. From this story its so easy to hate Namor and think the character unredeemable. He is so very far from the heroic prince of the seas presented in television which is my biggest Namor influence since I really love those cartoons. I don't know how Betty Dean can feel sympathetic with such a monster. I need to read some Bill Everett interviews, as I wonder why would he write his character causing such horrible, malignant acts if at the end he is to become a hero. I guess Namor appeals to the idealist in us thinking everyone can be redeemed and hoping that person who has fallen deep in the wrong path will one day see the light and change his ways or we can just ignore this as pure fantasy and fake deaths, still I have to say honestly it rubs me the wrong way.
    That is the amazing thing about Everett's early Namor -- he's an incredibly complex character, doing things unheard of for the standard superhero, told from the PoV of a country 'at war' with America. While Supes and even Bats were about upholding the law and America, Namor was the voice of violent revolution and anti-establishment and the disenfranchised. And you have to remember, to his own decimated people Namor IS a hero. I do wonder, like you, what the heck Everett was thinking when he wrote these early Namor stories? Was he planning on showing the flaws of a nationalistic hero? Was he planning on writing Namor growing up? Or was he just getting a kick out of writing an anti-hero?

    Well, you can certainly ignore alot of it, as the Golden Age comics aren't really in continuity in the first place. Stan sort of set it up, and Roy Thomas made it explicit, that the Golden Age stuff are actual old comics in the MU. They are highly fictionalized, exploitative retellings of events that may, or may not, have actually occurred in the 616. This is why the business with the tidal wave hitting New York is ... problematic.

    That said, Stan definitely changed some things about Namor from Bill Everett's original conception. But he certainly wasn't the first -- Bill did it himself. Just compare his first stories with Namor to his Atlas era 1950s stories with Namor.

    I do understand if you find early Golden Age Namor not so ... pleasant. I know I was SHOCKED when I first read them. And the post team up story line is equally strange in a different fashion. So, maybe we should on to the Silver Age?
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis Girl 94 View Post
    WOW, is all I have to say... this is great GA comic writing, but also shocking! I am in Awe of Bill E., how he would dare to write a character (a hero to his people) that killed so many is only a few panels of art. As my dad would say; "Bill had some Balls"! 3 in the torch of lady liberty, and dozens probably in the ferry boat, all dead!

    To be honest though, as a kid in 1939/1940 my eyes would of been glued to each panel and I would of been mad but also excited and thrilled at this avenger of the deep...

    Can't say anymore....thank you Thor-Ey; I am speechless......
    I think this was indeed the case. Kids must have LOVED seeing Namor go wild! He was like Wolverine in the early days -- WILD and violent.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  4. #49
    Just a Host. Cold Water's Avatar
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    I am trying to catch up, guys, sorry!
    I was not feeling well over the weekend.
    I made it up to Marvel Comics #4 last night.
    Hopefully, I can get caught up to you tonight.
    "All it takes for sexism to prosper is for good men to see nothing."

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Water View Post
    I am trying to catch up, guys, sorry!
    I was not feeling well over the weekend.
    I made it up to Marvel Comics #4 last night.
    Hopefully, I can get caught up to you tonight.
    Good to know you are with us Cold Water. Hope you feel better. My daughter is feeling sick today and missing school, seems the cold weather is bringing the flu around.
    My art main influences are Richard Corben, Frank Frazetta and John Buscema. For old school comic book heroes with an edge check out my patreon

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis Girl 94 View Post
    To be honest though, as a kid in 1939/1940 my eyes would of been glued to each panel and I would of been mad but also excited and thrilled at this avenger of the deep...

    Can't say anymore....thank you Thor-Ey; I am speechless......
    Yes, these stories are very shocking and unexpected, I have to say I'm having a good time reading, although the next story with the Human Torch I have already seen before so not too interested about that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I do understand if you find early Golden Age Namor not so ... pleasant. I know I was SHOCKED when I first read them. And the post team up story line is equally strange in a different fashion. So, maybe we should on to the Silver Age?
    Oh no the stories are interesting plus it has a historical value! There is so much Golden Age material to cover though that at some point I might just jump to the silver age, I wish I could cover it all though.
    My art main influences are Richard Corben, Frank Frazetta and John Buscema. For old school comic book heroes with an edge check out my patreon

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    These stories are really interesting... And I'm less shocked than you, my friends - I must confess it... Because it's just characters made of paper !

    Thinking about that version of Namor in New York, I can only thing about the great King Kong. I guess he killed a few ones too - or could - and doesn't seem to act like an usual hero too. It's interesting to compare him with this early version of Namor.
    Last edited by Abe; 01-26-2016 at 06:29 AM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    Today's issue we read is the renamed Marvel Comics; Marvel Mystery Comics #2. Namor is like a demon in the hunt to slaughter Americans, with a soft spot for the fair sex. So far Namor with the blessing of her mother Princess Fen goes in a destructive rampage, killing innocent men in his pursue for revenge against the surface world. I have to admit this is very different from the hot tempered but heroic prince from the Marvel Silver Age. It is very interesting because its more gritty and in a way more in line with action movies today. I'm curious to see how Namor turns around from villain to hero cause right now he is one very disturbed youth whose actions seem unredeamable.





    A copy of this issue is available in youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16qmUZjgAKg
    My FAVE, absolute FAVE page from this story is this:



    His behavior is so ridiculous that I absolutely LOVE it.
    Master of Redirection.
    Poor baby. I can kind of relate to this page, because if I bump my head, man, thank god I don't have super powers, because I'd totally pull a stunt like this.
    hahahahaha!
    "All it takes for sexism to prosper is for good men to see nothing."

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    the last parts of this great interview with Bill Everett's daughter : http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartis...02everett.html , seem really pertinent in the current discussion :

    Mike: How much of your dad was the Sub-Mariner? Do you think there was a lot of identification with the character?

    Wendy: I don't, but that's not to say that he didn't. I know who my dad was and I know who the Sub-Mariner is. It may have been who my father aspired to be in some way, but I don't think so.

    Mike: He told me in the late '60s that when he looked back at the early '40s, what he saw was a very angry young man that he later recognized as himself. Though he said at the time he wasn't conscious of it and was just doing the work.

    Wendy: My guess is that what he said is accurate. My father was a charming, intelligent, immensely talented—and complicated—human being. I loved him enormously and miss him to this day.
    Of course I'm pretty sure that the kids and the teenagers - among others - truly loved the savage version of Namor. I guess that Bill Everett put in him a lot of the anger he felt as a kid and later a troubled teenagers. And that is what made his creation as great - or greater ? - than Superman and Batman (the last one put one enemy in an acid bath in his first issue if I remember correctly...)

    (On a side-note, I'm pretty shocked by the electric chair and the death penalty! in fact more than by the other deaths in the book... I guess it's too realistic for me ! )

  10. #55
    Greetings, Chicken!!! Mantis Girl 94's Avatar
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    Agree... the electric chair was scary!

    I for one vote for keeping it up with the GA stories as long as you can... I am totally fascinated with them!!!

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abe View Post
    the last parts of this great interview with Bill Everett's daughter : http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartis...02everett.html , seem really pertinent in the current discussion :



    Of course I'm pretty sure that the kids and the teenagers - among others - truly loved the savage version of Namor. I guess that Bill Everett put in him a lot of the anger he felt as a kid and later a troubled teenagers. And that is what made his creation as great - or greater ? - than Superman and Batman (the last one put one enemy in an acid bath in his first issue if I remember correctly...)

    (On a side-note, I'm pretty shocked by the electric chair and the death penalty! in fact more than by the other deaths in the book... I guess it's too realistic for me ! )
    What I felt while reading the interview with Everett from that Alter Ego collection is that he adored the character, obviously, but I got the feeling that (at least at the time of the interview) he had someone detached himself from the character. I don't know how much (If any!) of that was maybe dislike in the direction the character had been taken since his creation, or if he just had a firm grasp on keeping himself separated from his creation(s)? I don't know. But I found it pretty interesting.
    "All it takes for sexism to prosper is for good men to see nothing."

  12. #57
    Just a Host. Cold Water's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    Good to know you are with us Cold Water. Hope you feel better. My daughter is feeling sick today and missing school, seems the cold weather is bringing the flu around.
    Oh, no! I hope she starts feeling better soon.
    I didn't have the flu, but my allergies were INSANE, and it caused me not to be able to sleep right at night.
    I finally got a decent night's sleep last night, so I feel a bit better today.
    "All it takes for sexism to prosper is for good men to see nothing."

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abe View Post
    the last parts of this great interview with Bill Everett's daughter : http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartis...02everett.html , seem really pertinent in the current discussion :



    Of course I'm pretty sure that the kids and the teenagers - among others - truly loved the savage version of Namor. I guess that Bill Everett put in him a lot of the anger he felt as a kid and later a troubled teenagers. And that is what made his creation as great - or greater ? - than Superman and Batman (the last one put one enemy in an acid bath in his first issue if I remember correctly...)

    (On a side-note, I'm pretty shocked by the electric chair and the death penalty! in fact more than by the other deaths in the book... I guess it's too realistic for me ! )
    Great contribution, Abe. I imagined he was putting a lot of personal anger through his character and you have confirmed it. There is much frustration when you are young, inexperienced and unfamiliar with the dealings of the adult world.
    My art main influences are Richard Corben, Frank Frazetta and John Buscema. For old school comic book heroes with an edge check out my patreon

  14. #59
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    What follows is the first Marvel crossover when the story starts in the Submariner strip and continues into the Human Torch's. After much terrorizing of New York city Namor is finally met by another super powered being: the Human Torch.



    The above are selected scans that highlight the main points of a story to generate discussion in a forum. You can read the complete story by purchasing the Marvel Masterworks: Golden Age Marvel Comics Vol. 2 (Marvel Mystery Comics #5–8) or any other available reprints.
    http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Masterw...DZ6W4Q3BE8288Q


    Both stories can be read in its entirely in these youtube links:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZSQ...ny4Ugz0qacyUkx
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shRv...ny4Ugz0qacyUkx
    Last edited by Thor-El; 01-29-2016 at 09:24 AM. Reason: add links
    My art main influences are Richard Corben, Frank Frazetta and John Buscema. For old school comic book heroes with an edge check out my patreon

  15. #60
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    Hahahahaha! I love how the baby is looking all skeptically at the nurse as if remaining with Namor might be the better option.
    "All it takes for sexism to prosper is for good men to see nothing."

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