Omega Shenron vs. Beerus

[big_adventure]

Beerus flicks SSJ3 Goku with a finger and knocks him around Kai's planet to the ground, and KOs him with a casual pressure point tap. It's way out of the league of what Omega does to Goku.

To be as fair as one might, SSJ2-but-mad-enough-to-be-above-SSJ3-Goku Vegeta did better against Beerus - actually pressed him a little bit, before losing. Observing Z-fighers, Vegeta and Goku himself all stated that Vegeta had surpassed Goku at that point.

And yes, SSJG Goku is clearly over SSJ3 Goku - but we don't know by exactly how much. The sum total of Beerus' stuff is:

Trivially dominating SSJ3 Goku.

Trivially dominating other Z-fighters.

Bitch-slapping Bulma.

Resulting in...

Pissing off Vegeta.

Getting pushed a little tiny bit by pissed-off Vegeta.

Beating SSJG Goku, but having to work (some) for it.

Busting up some planets or planetoids or moons after eating wasabi. Of note, busting up planets is **** Freeza can poop out, so this isn't all THAT impressive.

Getting sucker-punched to sleep by Whis while zipping around like a cat with his tail on fire.

So it's hard to say EXACTLY how powerful Beerus is and therefore SSJG Goku is, other than "more powerful than SSJ3 Goku and Somewhat-Stronger-Than-SSJ3-Goku-SSJ2 (Hmm... How about: SSTSSJ3GSSJ2) Vegeta."

We also don't know how much of the God Ki Goku can still access after the fight - we have some ambiguous statements from AT, but no feats at all at this point. Fortunately, there is going to be a sequel with rumored power-ups to Vegeta and Goku coming in 2015, so we'll know more sometime soon - just in time for some A-AoU Ultron versus SSJG Vegeta threads to pop up and degenerate into absolute madness, I imagine.

For Omega Shenron, when powered up he dominating SSJ4 Vegeta and SSJ4 Goku, and was only beaten (briefly) by SSJ4 Gogeta and, eventually, by the Universal Spirit Bomb. Saying that what Beerus does was "way out of the league of what Omega does to Goku" doesn't seem to have enough data points to be that definite.

It's really specious to make decisive statements on the relative power-levels on characters who are in two different continuities based on the paucity of good feats they have. I mean, we know that Goku and Vegeta never stop training, and that DBGT is significantly after BoG. We know that SSJ4 should be a significant power-up compared to SSJ3 - it is stated as much. But, of course, the feats and the writing in GT are... less than awesome. I get that you (And I! And I!) prefer BotG to GT - it's a better story, more cohesive (not hard, it's one film versus hours of anime filler) and is flat-out stated to be "real" by the hand of god (relatively speaking) himself, I just think that the difference isn't what you are making it out to be, at least not by the feats we see on-screen. I mean, we all go on about how GT's feats aren't that impressive, but really, what was so objectively impressive about what SSJG Goku pulled off? He doesn't have any casual planet busting going on. Obviously, we state that he COULD, since he's held to that level without SSJG and that should be a big powerup, but we don't have a ton of evidence that it is. We also notice that, though he could access SOME of the god-power when back to his normal form (after he burnt out), he couldn't access all of it, plus, Beerus was using the end of the fight as an object lesson more than a straight up ass-kicking by that point, which kind of invalidates a lot of what happens as far as being remotely high-end for either of the two of them.

tl;dr: I'm not saying that Beerus isn't stronger than Omega, I just don't know that we have enough data points to say so definitely. They didn't fight the same foes, after all.

[abmccray]

We know that he accesses his God power now in SSJ by default. It's shown by feats (doing the same or better against Beerus) and by Beerus' statements (telling Goku that he didn't even notice that he lost the god powerup but that his body accessed that ki now by default now that it did it once, so he's fighting on the same level).

Also, Beerus is the only person (besides Arale) to PHYSICALLY bust planets (everyone else basically goes through them), by ACCIDENT, on top of that, and doing multiples, continuously, without stopping. That backs up his job (destroying sections of the universe), and statements (that he would blow up the solar system/whatever and not just earth, just because). That's ridiculously above any actual feats in GT.

What was being responded to was asking why Beerus beating Goku in BoG was more impressive than Omega Shenron, and it was basically because he could do it with one finger.

[big_adventure]

We know that he accesses his God power now in SSJ by default. It's shown by feats (doing the same or better against Beerus) and by Beerus' statements (telling Goku that he didn't even notice that he lost the god powerup but that his body accessed that ki now by default now that it did it once, so he's fighting on the same level).

Right, but that was when he was still technically powered up to SSJG with the essences of the other 6 saiyans. Since end-of-Z, which is after BoG, shows that Vegeta and others are still saiyans and still badasses (and likely stronger as well), it's left distinctly unclear if Goku retains much or any of this powerup. I guess it'll make more sense if Vegeta at least gets to go SSJG in the next film, since only that would explain V & G still being on similar levels at end-of-Z. But for now, we don't know the story there.

Also, Beerus is the only person (besides Arale) to PHYSICALLY bust planets (everyone else basically goes through them), by ACCIDENT, on top of that, and doing multiples, continuously, without stopping. That backs up his job (destroying sections of the universe), and statements (that he would blow up the solar system/whatever and not just earth, just because). That's ridiculously above any actual feats in GT.

No arguments there - I completely agree.

What was being responded to was asking why Beerus beating Goku in BoG was more impressive than Omega Shenron, and it was basically because he could do it with one finger.

It was a very impressive takedown, but it must be allowed that BotG-era SSJ3 Goku is substantially weaker than GT-era SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta. None of them have any particularly impressive feats on their own, no, but they are all explicit power-ups of existing characters, and the second pair should each be at least several times as strong as the BotG SSJ3 Goku. Because, while AT dismisses GT, GT does not dismiss AT's work, and is an extension on it.

[Anarchist]

What utterly destroys GT's potential power scaling is the giant jump that Toriyama canon characters got in BoG.

I don't see the problem.
They can scale individually.

Toriyama Canon: Manga, Yo and BotG
Toei Canon: Anime, Movies, GT

Statements aren't feats.

Which is why Cell and Beerus are also no Solar System Busters.

[NK1988]

What do people think of the Universal Spirit Bomb though? You know, energy from the entire universe? Earth alone was enough to take out Kid Buu and this is dozens of times stronger.

[Anarchist]

I mentioned that too, and I think you're right.

[Hazard]

Toei Canon: Anime, Movies, GT

Which introduces yet another problem.

If we want to use movie feats for GT then the under-performance value gets even bigger.

There is a reason why GT is only left with its own feats to stand on most of the time.

What do people think of the Universal Spirit Bomb though? You know, energy from the entire universe? Earth alone was enough to take out Kid Buu and this is dozens of times stronger.

A gimmick.

It might be the 'energy of the entire universe', but it's not like there are legit destruction feats to judge how much power there is in there.

Really, it doesn't help that before throwing the thing a wounded, base kid Goku is tanking several blasts from Omega Shenron; so really killing the guy is not exactly impressive by that point.

[Anarchist]

It might be the 'energy of the entire universe', but it's not like there are legit destruction feats to judge how much power there is in there.

Oh please.
No single Spirit Bomb in the entire series, be it the small ones or the planetary one didn`t ever blow up more enviroment than a few miles at best.
The destructive power was always directed at the target.

That's pretty damn consistent, also in the movies.

[Hazard]

Oh please.
No single Spirit Bomb in the entire series, be it the small ones or the planetary one didn`t ever blow up more enviroment than a few miles at best.
The destructive power was always directed at the target.

That's pretty damn consistent, also in the movies.

Indeed, but they do have feats of blowing up people who took insane amounts of punishment.

Here's the thing you want to say it is stronger than the one that blew up Kid Buu. Okay, how much stronger?

It's not like GT actually has good destruction feats to compare it to.

Edit: Also, it was only the energy from the people they had met while travelling around the universe. Not the entire thing.

[big_adventure]

Indeed, but they do have feats of blowing up people who took insane amounts of punishment.

Here's the thing you want to say it is stronger than the one that blew up Kid Buu. Okay, how much stronger?

It's not like GT actually has good destruction feats to compare it to.

Edit: Also, it was only the energy from the people they had met while travelling around the universe. Not the entire thing.

Well, that still is a lot of people, many of them strong as hell. And it's several/many times as powerful as the BuuBomb at least. But, as you say, GT is stuck with what it's stuck with.

[NK1988]

Really, it doesn't help that before throwing the thing a wounded, base kid Goku is tanking several blasts from Omega Shenron; so really killing the guy is not exactly impressive by that point.

Base Goku took shots from Kid Buu as well when he was charging the Spirit Bomb.

Also it wasn't just the people they met, I'm pretty sure king Kai or someone explicitly said they were getting in touch with the Kais of each galaxy to ask their people to give their energy.

[Hazard]

Base Goku took shots from Kid Buu as well when he was charging the Spirit Bomb.

Nope. Goku teleported away from the only blast Kid Buu threw at him.

Also it wasn't just the people they met, I'm pretty sure king Kai or someone explicitly said they were getting in touch with the Kais of each galaxy to ask their people to give their energy.

And that really wouldn't change the blast having no reliable quantifier.

Doesn't help that the one guy who threw at Galick Gun at Earth failed to blow it up until much later.

[NK1988]

Nope. Goku teleported away from the only blast Kid Buu threw at him.

http://youtu.be/r50-JeJfx7I?t=1m39s

And yes I'm pretty sure that isn't in the manga but we're talking Anime Continuity here since it's GT. So Anime Buu Saga Base Goku could take hits from a casual planet buster therefore I don't see the problem with a significantly stronger base Goku taking hits from Omega Shenron.

[Hazard]

Anime filler.

As has been pointed out, Anime introduced a lot of plotholes. The scene is just SMvsFL.

Really, you're arguing for Base Goku's toughness when GT Base Goku has failed to lift buildings.

[master of read]

Anime filler.

As has been pointed out, Anime introduced a lot of plotholes. The scene is just SMvsFL.

Really, you're arguing for Base Goku's toughness when GT Base Goku has failed to lift buildings.

yup. considering some of the strength feats goku did in DB, it's rather strange to see him unable to lift a building.