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  1. #76
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    That's because DBZ is badly written and Freeza's PL was too absurdly high. Everyone took ludicrous boosts in the Freeza Saga because Toriyama wrote himself into a corner.

  2. #77
    Truth and Conviction Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK1988 View Post
    That's because DBZ is badly written and Freeza's PL was too absurdly high. Everyone took ludicrous boosts in the Freeza Saga because Toriyama wrote himself into a corner.
    Again, none of this negates, well, anything really.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK1988 View Post
    That's because DBZ is badly written and Freeza's PL was too absurdly high. Everyone took ludicrous boosts in the Freeza Saga because Toriyama wrote himself into a corner.
    It was badly written in the sense of they never should of used power levels. Or if they needed to do so they should of set up a proper scale for it. Other then that though..DBZ did nothing uncommon for manga..in the sense of characters consistently getting more and more powerful.

    Unfortunately bad writing means little here. If it did then Superboy Prime would never ever win a single fight.

  4. #79
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    I was responding to TDK's post, nothing more. It had nothing to do with the match.

    Also Power Levels worked perfectly up until Freeza. Power Levels on Namek ranged from 18,000 to about 40 or 50,000 which was the PL of all the Ginyu Force members apart from Captain Ginyu and Guldo. If we look to Vegeta, he went from 18,000 to about 24,000 to maybe 30.000. (I'm not sure what he was when he killed Jeice) Good, logical jumps. Now Captain Ginyu was 120.000 which means he was a little over 2-3x stronger than his men. Again, makes sense.

    Then here comes Freeza - 120,000,000. Literally 1,000x stronger than his strongest subordinate. Suddenly Gohan and Vegeta, who had been getting boosts in the ten thousand or so range, are getting boosts in the MILLIONS range.

    Goku at 3,000,000, who had been able to dominate with Kaioken x 4 before, now has to use Kaioken x 20 just to survive.

    There were a bunch of little, logical rises all throughout Namek. Then Freeza shows up and suddenly everyone spikes.

    It's part of why I think Freeza is the worst DBZ villain to be honest. I believe Toriyama himself has commented on hating the SSJ Multiplier being x50 because that's really just absurd.

    People think, because of BOG, Base Goku in Buu Saga was 80,000.000. Now times that by 50. Then x2 for SSJ2. Then x4 for SSJ3. You get so many zeros.
    Last edited by NK1988; 10-31-2014 at 11:22 AM.

  5. #80
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    Oh I do think Frieza is one of the worst DBZ villains. Not because of the power level things, but mostly the creepy hermaphrodite-ness of Frieza.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Buu Saga Base Goku was well above max Frieza level, since people weaker than him thought that staying in base form was the only way to make fighting against the likes of #18 and Piccolo interesting.

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surtur View Post
    Oh I do think Frieza is one of the worst DBZ villains. Not because of the power level things, but mostly the creepy hermaphrodite-ness of Frieza.
    Honestly, his androgynous features aside, he was a fairly masculine character in voice and mannerisms in the original manga/anime.

    Personally, he's actually my favorite DBZ villain because he was the only one that was so insanely above everyone else at the time that even Vegeta was resorting to guerilla warfare and tactics, and his fight against Goku pre-SSJ was full of Goku pulling out neat trick after neat trick.

  8. #83
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    I also choose to believe he is not the God of destruction, but of beer. They call it "golden ki" in DBZ.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK1988 View Post
    I was responding to TDK's post, nothing more. It had nothing to do with the match.

    Also Power Levels worked perfectly up until Freeza. Power Levels on Namek ranged from 18,000 to about 40 or 50,000 which was the PL of all the Ginyu Force members apart from Captain Ginyu and Guldo. If we look to Vegeta, he went from 18,000 to about 24,000 to maybe 30.000. (I'm not sure what he was when he killed Jeice) Good, logical jumps. Now Captain Ginyu was 120.000 which means he was a little over 2-3x stronger than his men. Again, makes sense.

    Then here comes Freeza - 120,000,000. Literally 1,000x stronger than his strongest subordinate. Suddenly Gohan and Vegeta, who had been getting boosts in the ten thousand or so range, are getting boosts in the MILLIONS range.

    Goku at 3,000,000, who had been able to dominate with Kaioken x 4 before, now has to use Kaioken x 20 just to survive.

    There were a bunch of little, logical rises all throughout Namek. Then Freeza shows up and suddenly everyone spikes.

    It's part of why I think Freeza is the worst DBZ villain to be honest. I believe Toriyama himself has commented on hating the SSJ Multiplier being x50 because that's really just absurd.

    People think, because of BOG, Base Goku in Buu Saga was 80,000.000. Now times that by 50. Then x2 for SSJ2. Then x4 for SSJ3. You get so many zeros.

    My post was about zenkais in general. Goku got several near death experiences pre-DBZ (and pre-Zenkai, though zenkais were used to retcon how he kept getting stronger) that gave him boosts that were negligible by Radditz' standards, chaining them via senzu just got him to Ginyu's level while Vegeta needed one zenkai to hop from Recoomish to Form 1 Friezaish, which is an even larger jump, followed by Gohan and Vegeta each getting jumps that arbitrarily made them strong enough to a little bit of notice from Form 2 and (a barely trying) Form 4 Frieza while Goku is recovering to the point where he zenkais to about 1% of max Form 1 Frieza's power. Meanwhile, all those boosts become garbage compared to the levels that they train themselves to be to fight against Cell, and Cell jumps up to a one-armed SSJ2 Gohan's level in one zenkai, complete with an SSJ2 lightning aura.

    Maybe there's some sort of unwritten rule about you boosting to be comparable to the thing you are facing or something, but since its unwritten its completely unreliable.

  10. #85
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    Super Perfect Cell was only a little weaker than SSJ2 Gohan. If he was truly only at half Gohan's strength, he couldn't have killed one of Gohan's arms with a casual blast.

  11. #86
    Extraordinary Member Hiromi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonknight11 View Post
    Take that complaint up with the DBZ anime as well where Pikkon/Goku beat up another Cell and Frieza (and King Cold and the Ginyu Force) team up. Or that one movie where the underworld emptied and suddenly all villains had their bodies again.
    So then you have no problem with Yamcha and Krillin being considered laughably stronger than Perfect Cell and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan then?

    Because we saw the two of them completely trashing Pikkon and the big blonde dude who was established as near Pikkon level in a filler scene. This is why we don't pay attention to filler, because half the time Toei doesn't either.
    Last edited by Hiromi; 10-31-2014 at 02:33 PM.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiromi View Post
    So then you have no problem with Yamcha and Krillin being considered laughably stronger than Perfect Cell and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan then?

    Because we saw the two of them completely trashing Pikkon and the big blonde dude who was established as near Pikkon level in a filler scene. This is why we don't pay attention to filler, because half the time Toei doesn't either.
    You know it is silly when Yamcha wins
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  13. #88
    Extraordinary Member Hiromi's Avatar
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    Actually it may have just been Yamcha trashing BOTH of them, I can't find the scene on youtube

    I remember it because when watching it for the first time it left this kind of impression

    [img]https://encrypted-tbn1.************/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRBXuj-E8b89tyydQbYHCrwHe69LBFFpmm_q37TwJxI3AMC_4-v[/img]

  14. #89
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    Are you sure you're not misremembering?



    That was the only time Krillin and Yacmah were with Pikkon.

  15. #90
    Extraordinary Member Hiromi's Avatar
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    Nope, that happened afterwards, the Yamcha scene happened after Buu did his human genocide attack and before he went to other world as Kid buu
    ah found it, it wasn't Pikkon but another one of the otherworld fighters, still included Olibu, the dude who could fight Pikkon evenly

    Last edited by Hiromi; 10-31-2014 at 03:44 PM.

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