Does the deconstruction phase of a genre(any genre) ultimately kill the genre?

[mathew101281]

I've been studying the Western genre and couldn't help but notice that it has a lot of parallels to the superhero genre. Both came out of the pulp/ dime store novel tradition. Both were kind of seen as cheap entertainment for the masses but eventually began to gain more acceptability. And both have a similar genre development path (starting off somewhat dark then going brighter then going grittier again). But looking at the Western I found that it went into decline creatively after its deconstruction phase (Spaghetti Westerns). Like wise I might argue that Superheroes went into decline creatively after the grim and gritty age. Sure their a lot of Superhero stuff being made but almost all of it features franchises created before the deconstructionist phase of the genre(late 70's to mid 80's). To me it seems that deconstruction kind of breaks the genre being deconstructed. Prior to deconstruction, creators tend to be simply throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. The parameters and tropes of the genre are still being formed. But once the deconstructionist movement begins, tropes and conventions start to be codified and the genre starts to be defined almost in absolute terms. This is partially due fans who grew up reading or watching said genre becoming creators. It's almost like some official comes down and says this is what this genre is about, these are it's themes and this is what defines it. After that point everything created tends to be a reaffirmation of those well defined tropes (Kingdom Come, Marvels, Astro City) or a rebellion against those tropes (every Grim and Gritty Superhero comic that came out of the 90's). What do you think of this theory?

[ish kabbible]

Ridiculous. You can say the same about SF,Detective,Horror,Romance and on and on. These generalizations are too huge to hold water

[mathew101281]

Ridiculous. You can say the same about SF,Detective,Horror,Romance and on and on. These generalizations are too huge to hold water

Yes you can say that about any genre which helps to amply my point that genres tend to go through similar phases and tend to go into decline after their deconstructionist phase.

[CliffHanger2]

Hmmmmm. There definitely is a decline in creativity after deconstruction it seems. What follows is the whole"Lets make everybody into a loser/wimp/douchenag" and show how horrible it is to be a hero.

[CSTowle]

Nah. Some things just go out of style. Like Westerns, hard-boiled/pulpy style detective stories, slasher teen flicks, etc. Doesn't mean they don't still exist and have millions of fans, just means they might not loom as large in the public consciousness as they did at their peak. Superhero comic book movies and superhero comic book reading couldn't line up because by the time comics started to decline in popularity there was still a good decade before CGI became feasible enough to crank them out by the dozens. I'm sure all too soon we'll start to see the movies decline in popularity as well, but still have them pop up every now and again. The majority of the consumers of fiction don't want to understand what they're enjoying, they just want to be entertained.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Nope. Every major genre has been deconstructed. And they aren't all dead. So, um, no.

Talking about deconstruction with comics fans is always tricky, because most of the ones I've run into have a different definition of it than the literary definition which basically boils down to examining and exposing tropes rather than the more complex literary focus on unstable meaning.

[FanboyStranger]

No, not at all. If this had been the case with superhero comics, there would have never been another superhero comic after Marshall Law utterly tore the genre apart in a far more playful and entertaining way than most of the superhero comics that 'inspired' it.

As far as Westerns, I don't think it was deconstruction that killed the genre so much as a shifting of the American popular conciousness. I'd argue the ubiquitity of the automobile essentially changed the notion of escapism in the American imagination away from wide open spaces and horses. It became about following the road rather than finding one. As Westerns started to die away in the late '60s and throughout the '70s, you saw a lot of road movies and romanticization of cars. Also, the idea of exploration and the frontier got transfered to space and space craft rather than the mythical West.

[PretenderNX01]

Westerns didn't die- they just became SciFi movies like Star Wars (well I guess westerns became samuria then Star Wars) or the original Star Trek TV show- Wagon Train to the Stars.

Sure their a lot of Superhero stuff being made but almost all of it features franchises created before the deconstructionist phase of the genre(late 70's to mid 80's).

I don't know, I think there are still a lot of creators who through stuff to the wall and see what sticks. Unless you count new legacy characters as being franchises from prior- we have stuff like young Avengers and the new Ms Marvel. Guardians of the Galaxy is fairly new too. X-Men was around a bit before that but mainly popular after that period.

Edit: Spawn and Hellboy came from the 90s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...o_debuts#1990s

[t hedge coke]

Rio Bravo was a Deconstruction of High Noon and other, earlier Westerns. Rio Bravo did not kill the Western movie.

Lethal Weapon, Last Action Hero, and Demolition Man were Deconstructions of sorts of action flicks, certain tropes and expectations in action movies. Not one of them ended the genre.

If you think Westerns died off before Unforgiven, Dead Wood, Josey Wales, Tombstone, the Postman, From Dusk Till Dawn 3: The Hangman's Daughter, or the remakes of 3:10 to Yuma and that Rooster Cogburn adventure, well... you missed some good Westerns over the course of the last forty-some years.

[Kirby101]

It's an interesting idea. I don't know about the codified tropes. But you can also look at it that the deconstruction comes a after the genre becomes stale or the ideas they convey are no longer accepted or relevant to a big part of the public. Did the Western decline because it was deconstructed, or was it deconstructed because so much of the myth felt false. From the noble gunman to the savage Indian.

For whatever reasons, I do think superhero characters became fixed as deconstruction of the genre began in the 80s. The characters that were the most popular then are still now.

[Mikekerr3]

Yes you can say that about any genre which helps to amply my point that genres tend to go through similar phases and tend to go into decline after their deconstructionist phase.

Genre popularity come and go, for example hard SF hasd come and gone at least three times since I started reading it.

Westerns have the problem of their iconic symbols no longer being seen quite clearly as heroic. It was not deconstruction that made Indian fighters and Calvary riding tio the rescue passe. it was a change in societies views over where they were the good guys or not

[Arundel Armor Hunter]

edhooper

Did the Western decline because it was deconstructed, or was it deconstructed because so much of the myth felt false. From the noble gunman to the savage Indian.

I don't think so, you had noble indian characters egvn in the 60s, it adjusted with th times.

[Arundel Armor Hunter]

Genre popularity come and go, for example hard SF hasd come and gone at least three times since I started reading it.

Westerns have the problem of their iconic symbols no longer being seen quite clearly as heroic. It was not deconstruction that made Indian fighters and Calvary riding tio the rescue passe. it was a change in societies views over where they were the good guys or not

Action heroes in general don't have to be heroic anymore. Also the average moviegoer cares little about history, that's why we see little history on screen, so i doubt that's why the cowboy is out of fashion.

[Mister Mets]

Every genre has been deconstructed, although there could be the argument that some genres don't survive the process.

Westerns aren't as popular as they once were, although there are still some interesting ones. Some lucky accidents led to the initial success (It was easy to shoot low to mid-budget Westerns in an industry based in California) but it didn't last. Part of it was a backlash against romanticization of the past. At some point, there's less material to wring from events that occurred in one part of the United States over a period of about 50 years. Greater distance from the era might have had an impact, as well as the elimination of the Hays Code, which allowed for more explicit contemporary stories.

[Mikekerr3]

edhooper


I don't think so, you had noble indian characters egvn in the 60s, it adjusted with th times.

Deconstuction of the Western started in the late fifites and John Wayne a was famous for it in the sixties. The Searchers and Rio Bravo and Rio Lobo were great examples of that

I can't think of a more brutual attack on the Cowboy and Indian mythos than that movie done by masters of that genre