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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vonter Voman View Post
    And it seems the vast majority of fans are good with the end, so...
    I guess to be argumentative, how do you know what the vast majority of fans are thinking? Was there a poll of some kind that asked the people that bought the end issue and asked them if they are good with the end?

    Or is it the people that are firmly in the Azz can do anything camp and I will like it no matter what that you are assuming is this 'vast majority'?

    This messageboard represents an extremely small percentage of people that actually buy the comic.

    What I would like to know is how many of the Azz readers will stick around for the new creative team. Or were they just here for Azz and then jump ship to the next Azz comic?

  2. #62
    Mighty Member My Two Cents's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    You took the words right out of my mouth. I kind of feel sorry for people who collected this entire run(and I don't mean that sarcastically) as there was lots of build-up with very little resolution or payoff. I almost wonder if Didio didn't know what to do with Wonder Woman when they were relaunching the New 52 and took Azz's pitch because he knew that Azz was a long-form writer and could buy them some additional time until they figured out what real direction to go with the character and her world.
    If Warner Bros took a different origin approach for Wonder Woman in the up coming movies, I would say you may have something there........
    But they did not and are going with Brian Azzarello's version more so than any of the others Wonder Woman has had over the years.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by wagthedog View Post
    I guess to be argumentative, how do you know what the vast majority of fans are thinking? Was there a poll of some kind that asked the people that bought the end issue and asked them if they are good with the end?

    Or is it the people that are firmly in the Azz can do anything camp and I will like it no matter what that you are assuming is this 'vast majority'?

    This messageboard represents an extremely small percentage of people that actually buy the comic.

    What I would like to know is how many of the Azz readers will stick around for the new creative team. Or were they just here for Azz and then jump ship to the next Azz comic?
    I'm saying fans of the run, and I'm saying from what I saw in reviews, tumblr, reddit and twitter. It's too early to know for sure, but there's always a pattern.

    And Azzarello doesn't have a "author fanbase" like that.

    Anyway, I think I'll just ask Azzarello or Chiang about Hippolyta and Athena on Secret Origins. Hopefully they will answer with at least some hint.
    Last edited by Vonter Voman; 10-29-2014 at 11:11 AM.

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagthedog View Post
    I guess to be argumentative, how do you know what the vast majority of fans are thinking? Was there a poll of some kind that asked the people that bought the end issue and asked them if they are good with the end?

    Or is it the people that are firmly in the Azz can do anything camp and I will like it no matter what that you are assuming is this 'vast majority'?

    This messageboard represents an extremely small percentage of people that actually buy the comic.

    What I would like to know is how many of the Azz readers will stick around for the new creative team. Or were they just here for Azz and then jump ship to the next Azz comic?


    I'd also be interested to see how this "vast majority" was gaged as I've seen a lot of negative comments about this issue on Newsarama, several Wonder Woman-related Facebook groups, and Twitter today. There have been some positive comments but from my own experience, I've seen more negative and mediocre comments than positive.
    Currently Reading:Aquaman, Doomsday Clock, Freedom Fighters, Gotham City Monsters, Hawkman, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Shazam, Wonder Twins, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

  5. #65

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    I see negative comments on those places from people who don't read/don't like any of it since 2011. Every month. Specially on WW facebook page.

    EDIT: Just checked Newsarama and it's exactly what I meant, people who don't like it complaining about the same stuff from years ago. Not one fan of the run complaining about the actual issue. Actually, none of them is saying anything specifically about the issue, even the ones who are praising.
    Last edited by Vonter Voman; 10-29-2014 at 11:38 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Tiara View Post
    I tried to warn you guys. There's no way Azzarello's run could live up to all the fan's expectations, or be as deep as all the endless hours of message board speculation would indicate. It was all slight of hand designed to monopolize your time and trick you into thinking there was more to the story than there really was. Azz provided the build up and let you jump to your own conclusions.
    Nobody's been fooled; we all just have a range of different, yet perfectly valid, preferences about how much and what kind of ambiguity we like in comics. Personally, I don't measure the "depth" of a work of fiction, whether it's a comic or not, by whether a its ending ties all the threads up in a neat bow or whether it ever explicates all of its its implications. I greatly enjoyed the ride, and while there are a few more answers I would have liked to get, I greatly enjoyed the destination too; as Vonter Voman says, the ending was poetic and moving.

    Frankly, while it's not as bad as calling those who dislike the run "haters," i think that implying that those who like the run were dupe, and that the writer was deceptive in employing "sleight of hand," is not really cool. Reasonable people can have honestly different tastes.

    Quote Originally Posted by VonterVoman
    I see negative comments on those places from people who don't read/don't like any of it since 2011. Every month. Specially on WW facebook page.
    Even on this thread, it seems like three of the people who are most negative about the issue are those who have mentioned that they stopped buying the book on a monthly basis some time ago (though they may flip through it at the store, or they may have read the last couple of issues). I don't mean to sound dismissive of anyone's views; I'm just trying to see how many of those displeased with the ending were fans of the run. Dr. Hurt, you sound like you might be the closest to someone who's enjoyed the run in the past but strongly disliked the finale; but you've been ambivalent about the run for a while, right?

    If I'm not mistaken, most people who have posted here and who have liked the run throughout were at least partially pleased about the finale. So there's no need to feel sorry for us, Dr. Poison and RazorTiara--I'd hate for you to lose any sleep feeling sorry for people who are pleased.

    Let's put it this way; is there anyone reading this who, after reading the finale, regrets buying and reading the whole run?
    Last edited by Silvanus; 10-29-2014 at 11:56 AM.

  7. #67
    Veteran Member Darth Kal-el's Avatar
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    I was never a huge Azz fan and I have read WW since Phil J, except for Gail Simone's run, could not get into it and I usually love her, and this has been my second favorite Wonder Woman story ever. I loved it was not tied with a bow and the audience has to draw some of their own conclusions. Plus since this is serial fiction and not the end of Wonder Woman it's always good when writers leave plot threads for the next team. Whether they choose to follow them is their choose. But wow great run. I was very satisfied.

  8. #68

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    The first time I read something from Azzarello was Flashpoint: The Knight of Vengeance and because I wanted to know his writting skills after seeing he would be the writer for Wonder Woman. Now I'm a fan of his due to WW, which opened the door for me to read his other stories.

    This end was much like what to expect from Azzarello. The Flashpoint mini also ended in a similar way. But like I said many times, I wanted to see some other things. The extra pages were lacking.

    And actually, it's 21 pages instead of 20, though I guess the final page doesn't really count storywise, just for the nice imagery.

    I give this issue a 8/10, and for the run, I guess 8.5/10. I'm really not good at giving rates, anyway.

    --------------------------------

    Again about Athena, she says she will be her true self "once more". I don't know if I'm reading the linguistics correctly, but I guess that could mean it's not the first time since she became Zola. Could someone confirm that may be the case with the choice of words?

    And Silvanus, about Diana conception... Athena says that "twenty something years ago" she was born as Zola. That could be either before, at around the same time, or a little after Diana was born. Then Diana's conception could be either a plan or a fortunate miracle.
    Last edited by Vonter Voman; 10-29-2014 at 12:00 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vonter Voman View Post
    You shouldn't feel sorry about people who aren't sad (aside by the fact that it's over). Your feelings of "I knew it, you should have listened to me" are only being valid for your own opinions about it.

    Apparently some of you were still wanting explanation about the raids, when it doesn't need further explanation and it has been adressed subtly. So... in your minds, that must be a cheat, but in my mind, it isn't at all.

    I'm glad about the way we can still have theories about it, except of what would happen to all those characters I keep mentioning that didn't have a closure.

    And it seems the vast majority of fans are good with the end, so...
    When a story comes to a close, one of the things I have to have in order to have enjoyed it, is closure. I don't need a nice little bow, but I would like to know at least half of all the whys and what fors.

    Have you ever seen Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds"? I saw it as a small child and even then I was angry when it was over, due to a lack of resolution to the story. It just ended with no explanations and it felt like I was cheated, even though I saw it on videotape for free at school, when I could have been doing something I hated, like math. Imagine how I'd feel if I had to pay 113.68, in 2.99 installments, over three loooooong years of my life. I'm just happy I dodged that bullet.

    I'm not saying that you'll stay up at night wondering about the untied plot threads of Azzarello's story. I'm just saying that like last week's Secret Origins issue (without a contest, but with several unanswered questions) it was incomplete. And that's gotta suck...at least for me it would. Sorry.
    Last edited by Razor Tiara; 10-29-2014 at 11:57 AM.

  10. #70

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    In fact, I think Zola could turn into full owl-Athena if she didn't conceded Diana her wish. She wouldn't leave a body, she would just turn into Athena. But when she leaves Zola, she doesn't turn into a person... she just becomes an small owl.

    @Razor Tiara, then you should only feel sorry for those who feel cheated with things like that. I'm pretty sure "The Birds" has a lot of fans. And so I like to create the story along. I'm just upset about some things that I CAN'T theorize because there isn't base to it.
    Last edited by Vonter Voman; 10-29-2014 at 12:07 PM.

  11. #71
    Fantastic Member Brave Sir Robin's Avatar
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    Well, I am sad to see Azz go. The ending was midling, it wrapped things up adequately but was not as amazing as the rest of the story. It would not seem as weak if Azz was staying and this was a new starting point for his plot, but that is the way things go. I will drop WW today from my Comixology subscriptions and move on. The overall run was just amazing and fun so I will concentrate on that and not what lies or the other incarnations of Diana that show up in the JL or Super Duper Romance.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brave Sir Robin View Post
    Well, I am sad to see Azz go. The ending was midling, it wrapped things up adequately but was not as amazing as the rest of the story. It would not seem as weak if Azz was staying and this was a new starting point for his plot, but that is the way things go. I will drop WW today from my Comixology subscriptions and move on. The overall run was just amazing and fun so I will concentrate on that and not what lies or the other incarnations of Diana that show up in the JL or Super Duper Romance.
    I thought that with Azz being so well received by the critics that even when he left, people would at least still follow the character. After all, he set up the blueprint for other authors to work on.

    So.....are you an Azz fan, or just don't think anyone can sustain his storytelling after he leaves? I mean, the intention was to grab new readers and hook them with the character so that it doesn't matter who is doing the storytelling, right?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Tiara View Post
    Have you ever seen Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds"? I saw it as a small child and even then I was angry when it was over...
    I saw it, and I loved it. The ambiguous ending was unsettling and creepy, but I think I expected it to be unsettling and creepy, and it was cool that it creeped me out and unsettled me in a particular way that I didn't expect.

    And that's gotta suck...at least for me it would. Sorry.
    No need to be sorry that we experienced something that would have sucked for you. It didn't suck for me.

    If I said I was sorry for you that you were unable to appreciate Azzarello's writing, that would sound a little condescending, right? (It also wouldn't be true; I know you just have different tastes from mine, not a lack of ability to appreciate.) It sounds pretty much as condescending coming in the other direction.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vonter Voman View Post
    In fact, I think Zola could turn into full owl-Athena if she didn't conceded Diana her wish. She wouldn't leave a body, she would just turn into Athena. But when she leaves Zola, she doesn't turn into a person... she just becomes an small owl.

    @Razor Tiara, then you should only feel sorry for those who feel cheated with things like that. I'm pretty sure "The Birds" has a lot of fans. And so I like to create the story along. I'm just upset about some things that I CAN'T theorize because there isn't base to it.
    What would those things be? I still want to know how Diana became Wonder Woman and why Hippolyta is clay.

    As for "The Birds" sure it has it's fans, but it's no Psycho, Rebecca or Strangers on a Train. It could have been though, had it had a better ending.

    It's all about the details.

  15. #75

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    I can theorize about why Hippolyta is clay (it seemed it was due to Strife, now I said it may be because Hera didn't really want to turn her back), but the only theory I can come with about what will be of her now is that Hera will restore her.

    I can't teorize about who is going to replace Hades, or if he will come back. The same for Apollo. Well, actually I can, but I need to formulate more on it.

    The preview of the Finches at the end only states Diana and the League are seeing many natural incidents around the world and she's going after Swamp Thing, "hitting first and asking later" (meh). We may not have a continuation for those things.

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