Whitebeard vs The Thing

[Hazard]

Did the drill actually bore through a planet, like did it have the feats for it? And the Juubi can shrugg off its own blasts, which are of the arguably country busting quality. Has Ben really just shrugged off something on that level?

Added for... the sake of it really.

The things Juubi shoots like spitballs and zero charge time are in the mountain range... range.

The charged shots that are of the same size as him should be way beyond that. We never get to actually see them blow up without something containing them or sending them really far away, but they should be in that range.

Though, as Sharp would say, mileage may vary.

[Daenarys Stormborn]

I was referring more to using Ben's ability to not be turned to paste by the likes of Namor, Hulk and flipping Gladiator as clean durability feats instead of things that have also been done by Wolverine because comics.

As for Luffy or Naruto vs. Hercules (MU), then assuming that Herc can no sell blasts that overwhelm 5 mountain vaping attacks at once, both guys (and FG Ichigo for the full HST) have enough speed and strength/firepower to smack Herc into orbit before he even realizes that the fight had started. The Eneru vs. Magneto thing, IIRC, was based on Mags not being fast enough to activate his shields before the Luffy blitzing Eneru splatters him with a lovetap.

Ben has always had much better durability than he has strength. The Thing matching anyone of those people in strength would probably fall under pis or smvfl, but taking shots from Hulk or Namor and not being koed seems par for the course. Gladiator probably ends up as smvsfl since Hulk isn't thought of as anywhere in his league though. For Namor, The Thing's first 2 encounters With Namor were him taking multiple shots from the guy..I think it has happened many times after that as well.

As for Wb and brain quake, that would require Wb to get his hands on the Thing. The other travelling air quakes and such clearly didn't do as much damage. Akainu was out from being punched directly, but all the admirals haki re-directed air quakes. Also, WB technically has no speed feats and the implied haki pre-cog was never demonstrated by him on a level that would help against anyone in combat.

[Jcogginsa]

apparently, Whitebeard old age pretty much destroyed Whitebeard's dodging capability. That chest stab Squardo gave him is commented on as something he could have dodged earlier in his career

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

apparently, Whitebeard old age pretty much destroyed Whitebeard's dodging capability. That chest stab Squardo gave him is commented on as something he could have dodged earlier in his career

When you're old, moving is a luxury.

[Hazard]

apparently, Whitebeard old age pretty much destroyed Whitebeard's dodging capability. That chest stab Squardo gave him is commented on as something he could have dodged earlier in his career

Well yeah, the guy was slapping around Ace while pretty much asleep before.

[Dark Soul # 7]

When you're old, moving is a luxury.

72 years old and sick.

I'm kinda hoping for a flashback of Ed and Roger's battles where they're both shown to be zipping like G2 Ruffy.

[Melchior]

While I would consider myself relatively knowledgable about both parties, I do have one question. While I know Ben can take much more than he can dish out, how is his internal constitution? That will be the kicker - Whitebeard's "Earthquake in your head" punch gets a lot of mileage over the fact that it is easy to cause a concussion that way, sense the attack is occurring within the body. Are there any particular instances of someone hurting Ben by bypassing his rocky outer body?

[master of read]

Well yeah, the guy was slapping around Ace while pretty much asleep before.

and he was still quick enough to sneak up on akainu without him knowing about it until someone told him to watch out. keep in mind, akainu has some pretty good hearing.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Ben has always had much better durability than he has strength. The Thing matching anyone of those people in strength would probably fall under pis or smvfl, but taking shots from Hulk or Namor and not being koed seems par for the course. Gladiator probably ends up as smvsfl since Hulk isn't thought of as anywhere in his league though. For Namor, The Thing's first 2 encounters With Namor were him taking multiple shots from the guy..I think it has happened many times after that as well.

As for Wb and brain quake, that would require Wb to get his hands on the Thing. The other travelling air quakes and such clearly didn't do as much damage. Akainu was out from being punched directly, but all the admirals haki re-directed air quakes. Also, WB technically has no speed feats and the implied haki pre-cog was never demonstrated by him on a level that would help against anyone in combat.

Yeah, being more durable than he is strong makes sense, but to be sufficiently durable to make Wet Namor and an island busting Hulk need more than one serious hit to KO/explode him would also make him so durable that anyone below class 100 would break their hands on him before making him blink. Now, I don't follow the FF too much, but does he normally do things like ignore punches from She Hulk or alternate universe Ben Grimms?

I was looking through WB's few appearances, and here's the kind of stuff he was doing:

Crossing blades with Shanks parted the clouds above them;

Punked Ace with casual ease, repeatedly, even when attacked while he was asleep/not looking in his direction (Ace being a guy that was shortlisted to be a Shichibukai and was dead even with Jinbei after 5 days straight of battling);

Casually created seaquakes strong enough to create 2 tsunamis that each towered over the battlefield, which included several hills/mountains and tons of giants;

Was able to create air-quakes that intercepted Aokiji's projectiles and even Aokiji himself, Aokiji being a Haki user that had just gone from sitting in a chair at the execution site to being hundreds of feet in the air (from where he froze both of the aforementioned tsunamis instantly) pretty much instantly;

Was able to see and nonchalantly react to attacks from Mihawk and Kizaru, both of which were shown to be ridiculously fast even by the standards of high end bullet timers like that era's Luffy and Zoro (he didn't counter them, but that's because he was letting his subordinates do it for him);

Casually caught a chunk of magma with his bisento and blew it out like a candle (see prior scan);

While watching Oars, Jr. die, backhand air-quaked a featless giant Vice Admiral's weapon without looking, caught him by the head and casually skull/brainquaked him down instantly;

The earthquakes he was causing were shown to affect islands miles away, long before he got close to going full out;

Was able to sense Crocodile about to attack him from behind, though he didn't seem to be bothered to defend himself before Luffy intervened and then he proceeded to casually chat with him instead;

He did get sucker stabbed by Ouzugumo, but that was from a normally loyal and beloved son who had just been chatting with him right before he stabbed him (a point against Haki-precog, though being done by another famous pirate captain who is extremely familiar with Whitebeard and strong enough to break out of the hold of a pissed off Marco who had himself been going toe to toe with friggin' Kizaru earlier; everyone was surprised that Whitebeard had gotten so ill that he couldn't dodge a surprise attack from someone of that level who had attacked from surprise, though);

Subsequently, he created air-quakes that shattered both of the massive frozen tidal waves (admittedly, one of them was sliced in half by Mihawk earlier, but that still left the other intact);

Casually caught a double-handed slash by some giant called, appropriately, John Giant with a one-handed block using his bisento, then grabbed the air and created a quake strong enough to tilt the entire flipping island, including the waters around it, notably;



He then jumped into the air and repeatedly caused quakes inside John Giant's gut without touching him, causing him to gush blood from the mouth and drop, while also shaking the entire area except for the execution platform itself where the three Admirals are doing... something, probably Haki related, to hold off that power;


He was unable to break whatever material the sea walls were made of, though since it caused his powers to bounce back, it might have something weird about it, especially considering how much Seastone and Vegapunk junk the Marines throw into their tech (it did dent notably, though);

He sent an entire crowd flying with a earthquake enhanced bisento slash;

No-sold being frozen solid and broke out using his quakes, then shanked Aokiji before he could react and held him in place for Diamond Jose/Jaws to shoulder check him;

Caught Luffy with his off hand when Kizaru sent him flying with a kick (its unclear if Kizaru kicked him towards Whitebeard, or if Whitebeard intercepted);

Matched Akainu strike for strike for a bit before casually backhanding a magma dog that was sent at him while he was focusing on rousing his troops against Garp (it should be noted that every attack is still causing massive quake damage to the island, which is why Akainu was intercepting him at that point);

His illness (possibly also stab-wound, but illness was the primary stated reason) caused him to collapse to his knees puking blood and then Akainu shoves a lava fist into his chest and a bunch of Vice Admirals (I think) stab and shoot him while he's still wheezing for breath and unable to move, then when he gets his wind back, he tells his crew not to interfere and takes out all the people attacking him (except Akainu, who wasn't there anymore for some reason) with one swing of his Bisento;

He didn't think he could cross the remaining distance to Ace before two marines could decapitate him, and he also seemed to forget about using the King's Haki to KO them himself like Luffy proceeded to do;

He continued to take out crowds of people with individual swings;

He then intercepted Kizaru before he could fully turn to light and stop Luffy (to put this in perspective, Kizaru did the same thing earlier, AFTER Luffy had already rushed past him in a full out Gear 2nd Blitz, calling Luffy slow in the process);

He almost does it again, but this time Kizaru twisted out of the way and pierced his chest with a laser;

Stop a massive charging battleship with one hand while still gasping for breath;

Severely damaged Marine HQ with a single quake;

Still sent crowds flying with each swing, but there are massive explosions accompanying them now;

While pretty much in the process of dying already, was able to get behind Akainu (who had just been going toe to toe with the likes of Ace, Jinbei, Marco and the flower swordsman who was keeping up with Mihawk earlier) and, as an earlier scan showed, stomp him into the ground and counterattack after having half his head melted off (the counter attack basically KO'd Akainu in one shot and create a massive trench that split Marine HQ and a plaza large enough to hold their giant-filled battle in twain from the shockwave);

And finally, still sent crowds flying, he then he proceeded to monster all over the Luffy/Ace class Blackbeard, slashing him even without his powers and then brainquaking him, though he somehow survived it long enough for a bunch of level six criminals to gang up and finish killing a Whitebeard who was almost dead already, though he managed to get in a world changing monologue before he croaked on his feet.


Also, after Blackbeard finished leveling Marine HQ with one last shot of Whitebeard's Goro Goro no Mi, Sengoku specifically notes that Marineford the island itself is important for being an unmoving island almost at the center of the world (map, presumably).

Hey, weird thought: We usually grant that Armament Haki will let people hit elementals on the grounds that it works against Logia. What about people who are permanently another element like Luffy-type Paramecia? I vote that we just assume that a punch from Haki won't affect Ben as though he was a normal human being on the grounds that trying to figure out the rules of how this would work kinda makes my head hurt.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Okay, tl;dr:

When two guys who are probably strong enough to punch one another into orbit fight, I bet on the guy with the combat precog, speed sufficient to keep up with Akainu/Kizaru/Aokiji while basically in the middle of dying, and the ability to smack people around from range and has deliberately used his powers to screw with his opponent's footing to let him land free shots.

[master of read]

Yeah, being more durable than he is strong makes sense, but to be sufficiently durable to make Wet Namor and an island busting Hulk need more than one serious hit to KO/explode him would also make him so durable that anyone below class 100 would break their hands on him before making him blink. Now, I don't follow the FF too much, but does he normally do things like ignore punches from She Hulk or alternate universe Ben Grimms?

I was looking through WB's few appearances, and here's the kind of stuff he was doing:

Crossing blades with Shanks parted the clouds above them;

Punked Ace with casual ease, repeatedly, even when attacked while he was asleep/not looking in his direction (Ace being a guy that was shortlisted to be a Shichibukai and was dead even with Jinbei after 5 days straight of battling);

Casually created seaquakes strong enough to create 2 tsunamis that each towered over the battlefield, which included several hills/mountains and tons of giants;

Was able to create air-quakes that intercepted Aokiji's projectiles and even Aokiji himself, Aokiji being a Haki user that had just gone from sitting in a chair at the execution site to being hundreds of feet in the air (from where he froze both of the aforementioned tsunamis instantly) pretty much instantly;

Was able to see and nonchalantly react to attacks from Mihawk and Kizaru, both of which were shown to be ridiculously fast even by the standards of high end bullet timers like that era's Luffy and Zoro (he didn't counter them, but that's because he was letting his subordinates do it for him);

Casually caught a chunk of magma with his bisento and blew it out like a candle (see prior scan);

While watching Oars, Jr. die, backhand air-quaked a featless giant Vice Admiral's weapon without looking, caught him by the head and casually skull/brainquaked him down instantly;

The earthquakes he was causing were shown to affect islands miles away, long before he got close to going full out;

Was able to sense Crocodile about to attack him from behind, though he didn't seem to be bothered to defend himself before Luffy intervened and then he proceeded to casually chat with him instead;

He did get sucker stabbed by Ouzugumo, but that was from a normally loyal and beloved son who had just been chatting with him right before he stabbed him (a point against Haki-precog, though being done by another famous pirate captain who is extremely familiar with Whitebeard and strong enough to break out of the hold of a pissed off Marco who had himself been going toe to toe with friggin' Kizaru earlier; everyone was surprised that Whitebeard had gotten so ill that he couldn't dodge a surprise attack from someone of that level who had attacked from surprise, though);

Subsequently, he created air-quakes that shattered both of the massive frozen tidal waves (admittedly, one of them was sliced in half by Mihawk earlier, but that still left the other intact);

Casually caught a double-handed slash by some giant called, appropriately, John Giant with a one-handed block using his bisento, then grabbed the air and created a quake strong enough to tilt the entire flipping island, including the waters around it, notably;



He then jumped into the air and repeatedly caused quakes inside John Giant's gut without touching him, causing him to gush blood from the mouth and drop, while also shaking the entire area except for the execution platform itself where the three Admirals are doing... something, probably Haki related, to hold off that power;


He was unable to break whatever material the sea walls were made of, though since it caused his powers to bounce back, it might have something weird about it, especially considering how much Seastone and Vegapunk junk the Marines throw into their tech (it did dent notably, though);

He sent an entire crowd flying with a earthquake enhanced bisento slash;

No-sold being frozen solid and broke out using his quakes, then shanked Aokiji before he could react and held him in place for Diamond Jose/Jaws to shoulder check him;

Caught Luffy with his off hand when Kizaru sent him flying with a kick (its unclear if Kizaru kicked him towards Whitebeard, or if Whitebeard intercepted);

Matched Akainu strike for strike for a bit before casually backhanding a magma dog that was sent at him while he was focusing on rousing his troops against Garp (it should be noted that every attack is still causing massive quake damage to the island, which is why Akainu was intercepting him at that point);

His illness (possibly also stab-wound, but illness was the primary stated reason) caused him to collapse to his knees puking blood and then Akainu shoves a lava fist into his chest and a bunch of Vice Admirals (I think) stab and shoot him while he's still wheezing for breath and unable to move, then when he gets his wind back, he tells his crew not to interfere and takes out all the people attacking him (except Akainu, who wasn't there anymore for some reason) with one swing of his Bisento;

He didn't think he could cross the remaining distance to Ace before two marines could decapitate him, and he also seemed to forget about using the King's Haki to KO them himself like Luffy proceeded to do;

He continued to take out crowds of people with individual swings;

He then intercepted Kizaru before he could fully turn to light and stop Luffy (to put this in perspective, Kizaru did the same thing earlier, AFTER Luffy had already rushed past him in a full out Gear 2nd Blitz, calling Luffy slow in the process);

He almost does it again, but this time Kizaru twisted out of the way and pierced his chest with a laser;

Stop a massive charging battleship with one hand while still gasping for breath;

Severely damaged Marine HQ with a single quake;

Still sent crowds flying with each swing, but there are massive explosions accompanying them now;

While pretty much in the process of dying already, was able to get behind Akainu (who had just been going toe to toe with the likes of Ace, Jinbei, Marco and the flower swordsman who was keeping up with Mihawk earlier) and, as an earlier scan showed, stomp him into the ground and counterattack after having half his head melted off (the counter attack basically KO'd Akainu in one shot and create a massive trench that split Marine HQ and a plaza large enough to hold their giant-filled battle in twain from the shockwave);

And finally, still sent crowds flying, he then he proceeded to monster all over the Luffy/Ace class Blackbeard, slashing him even without his powers and then brainquaking him, though he somehow survived it long enough for a bunch of level six criminals to gang up and finish killing a Whitebeard who was almost dead already, though he managed to get in a world changing monologue before he croaked on his feet.


Also, after Blackbeard finished leveling Marine HQ with one last shot of Whitebeard's Goro Goro no Mi, Sengoku specifically notes that Marineford the island itself is important for being an unmoving island almost at the center of the world (map, presumably).

Hey, weird thought: We usually grant that Armament Haki will let people hit elementals on the grounds that it works against Logia. What about people who are permanently another element like Luffy-type Paramecia? I vote that we just assume that a punch from Haki won't affect Ben as though he was a normal human being on the grounds that trying to figure out the rules of how this would work kinda makes my head hurt.

to the last thought, luffy has been hurt by armament haki attacks that either bypassed his powers (and inherit blunt force soak/immunity) or negated them outright.

but i will agree with you. i cant really say if haki strikes will do the same to ben as they do to luffy so i havent really factored it into my thought process.

[Little_Mac]

When you're old, moving is a luxury.

Honestly, that's the key. I'm reading arguments about the Thing's durability. How is he getting close enough to even punch Whitebeard?

The Thing doesn't have enough speed before an earthquake is separating him and Whitebeard. I'm thinking that one of Whitebeard punches is capable of stopping a Thunderclap. Jumping in the air against Whitebeard is begging for a spear slash knocking him into that chasm. Once he is in the chasm, he's getting buried.

[Daenarys Stormborn]

Yeah, being more durable than he is strong makes sense, but to be sufficiently durable to make Wet Namor and an island busting Hulk need more than one serious hit to KO/explode him would also make him so durable that anyone below class 100 would break their hands on him before making him blink. Now, I don't follow the FF too much, but does he normally do things like ignore punches from She Hulk or alternate universe Ben Grimms?

I was looking through WB's few appearances, and here's the kind of stuff he was doing:

Crossing blades with Shanks parted the clouds above them;

Punked Ace with casual ease, repeatedly, even when attacked while he was asleep/not looking in his direction (Ace being a guy that was shortlisted to be a Shichibukai and was dead even with Jinbei after 5 days straight of battling);

Casually created seaquakes strong enough to create 2 tsunamis that each towered over the battlefield, which included several hills/mountains and tons of giants;

Was able to create air-quakes that intercepted Aokiji's projectiles and even Aokiji himself, Aokiji being a Haki user that had just gone from sitting in a chair at the execution site to being hundreds of feet in the air (from where he froze both of the aforementioned tsunamis instantly) pretty much instantly;

Was able to see and nonchalantly react to attacks from Mihawk and Kizaru, both of which were shown to be ridiculously fast even by the standards of high end bullet timers like that era's Luffy and Zoro (he didn't counter them, but that's because he was letting his subordinates do it for him);

Casually caught a chunk of magma with his bisento and blew it out like a candle (see prior scan);

While watching Oars, Jr. die, backhand air-quaked a featless giant Vice Admiral's weapon without looking, caught him by the head and casually skull/brainquaked him down instantly;

The earthquakes he was causing were shown to affect islands miles away, long before he got close to going full out;

Was able to sense Crocodile about to attack him from behind, though he didn't seem to be bothered to defend himself before Luffy intervened and then he proceeded to casually chat with him instead;

He did get sucker stabbed by Ouzugumo, but that was from a normally loyal and beloved son who had just been chatting with him right before he stabbed him (a point against Haki-precog, though being done by another famous pirate captain who is extremely familiar with Whitebeard and strong enough to break out of the hold of a pissed off Marco who had himself been going toe to toe with friggin' Kizaru earlier; everyone was surprised that Whitebeard had gotten so ill that he couldn't dodge a surprise attack from someone of that level who had attacked from surprise, though);

Subsequently, he created air-quakes that shattered both of the massive frozen tidal waves (admittedly, one of them was sliced in half by Mihawk earlier, but that still left the other intact);

Casually caught a double-handed slash by some giant called, appropriately, John Giant with a one-handed block using his bisento, then grabbed the air and created a quake strong enough to tilt the entire flipping island, including the waters around it, notably;



He then jumped into the air and repeatedly caused quakes inside John Giant's gut without touching him, causing him to gush blood from the mouth and drop, while also shaking the entire area except for the execution platform itself where the three Admirals are doing... something, probably Haki related, to hold off that power;


He was unable to break whatever material the sea walls were made of, though since it caused his powers to bounce back, it might have something weird about it, especially considering how much Seastone and Vegapunk junk the Marines throw into their tech (it did dent notably, though);

He sent an entire crowd flying with a earthquake enhanced bisento slash;

No-sold being frozen solid and broke out using his quakes, then shanked Aokiji before he could react and held him in place for Diamond Jose/Jaws to shoulder check him;

Caught Luffy with his off hand when Kizaru sent him flying with a kick (its unclear if Kizaru kicked him towards Whitebeard, or if Whitebeard intercepted);

Matched Akainu strike for strike for a bit before casually backhanding a magma dog that was sent at him while he was focusing on rousing his troops against Garp (it should be noted that every attack is still causing massive quake damage to the island, which is why Akainu was intercepting him at that point);

His illness (possibly also stab-wound, but illness was the primary stated reason) caused him to collapse to his knees puking blood and then Akainu shoves a lava fist into his chest and a bunch of Vice Admirals (I think) stab and shoot him while he's still wheezing for breath and unable to move, then when he gets his wind back, he tells his crew not to interfere and takes out all the people attacking him (except Akainu, who wasn't there anymore for some reason) with one swing of his Bisento;

He didn't think he could cross the remaining distance to Ace before two marines could decapitate him, and he also seemed to forget about using the King's Haki to KO them himself like Luffy proceeded to do;

He continued to take out crowds of people with individual swings;

He then intercepted Kizaru before he could fully turn to light and stop Luffy (to put this in perspective, Kizaru did the same thing earlier, AFTER Luffy had already rushed past him in a full out Gear 2nd Blitz, calling Luffy slow in the process);

He almost does it again, but this time Kizaru twisted out of the way and pierced his chest with a laser;

Stop a massive charging battleship with one hand while still gasping for breath;

Severely damaged Marine HQ with a single quake;

Still sent crowds flying with each swing, but there are massive explosions accompanying them now;

While pretty much in the process of dying already, was able to get behind Akainu (who had just been going toe to toe with the likes of Ace, Jinbei, Marco and the flower swordsman who was keeping up with Mihawk earlier) and, as an earlier scan showed, stomp him into the ground and counterattack after having half his head melted off (the counter attack basically KO'd Akainu in one shot and create a massive trench that split Marine HQ and a plaza large enough to hold their giant-filled battle in twain from the shockwave);

And finally, still sent crowds flying, he then he proceeded to monster all over the Luffy/Ace class Blackbeard, slashing him even without his powers and then brainquaking him, though he somehow survived it long enough for a bunch of level six criminals to gang up and finish killing a Whitebeard who was almost dead already, though he managed to get in a world changing monologue before he croaked on his feet.


Also, after Blackbeard finished leveling Marine HQ with one last shot of Whitebeard's Goro Goro no Mi, Sengoku specifically notes that Marineford the island itself is important for being an unmoving island almost at the center of the world (map, presumably).

Hey, weird thought: We usually grant that Armament Haki will let people hit elementals on the grounds that it works against Logia. What about people who are permanently another element like Luffy-type Paramecia? I vote that we just assume that a punch from Haki won't affect Ben as though he was a normal human being on the grounds that trying to figure out the rules of how this would work kinda makes my head hurt.

Thing has fought Hulk like over a dozen times, and Namor like half a dozen, I think. So it should make perfect sense he is able to survived their hits. From the fights I've read and can recall off hand, he is usually able to take multiple hits from them, and is almost universally presented as weaker than them physically. Regarding Gladiator, I looked into him a bit. In hindsight, I don't think the Thing surviving a hit from the guy would be smvfl because I am not (from the scans I saw) convinced the gladiator is as strong as I've often seen referred. Gladiator aside, the Thing taking hits from Hulk/Namor seems average for him...as does surviving other class 100 hits. Thing has always been a durability beast above all else. If I am proven wrong then so be it...

As for She Hulk, I have no idea what she is capable of. As for anyone below Class 100 breaking their fist or something, I have rarely read a comic where Brick of decent strength (though not class 100) breaks their fist against anything..much less another fighter.

Regarding Wb, I don't think his durability is up to par with taking any hits from Ben. Likewise, his non earthquake strength feats weren't even more impressive than Jozu or Garp (1 on 1 vs with power-scaling aside). So if it gets into close quarter Ben should win. From long-range, I doubt WB earthquake hitting you in the air causes anywhere near the damage of when he hits you directly, and doubt the former would be enough to knock thing out. So...maybe thing can't get close for awhile, but WB gets tired given his old age...GURA GURA GURA! So cometh Clobbering time!

Haki? Not sure it could ignore Thing. It'd be a no limits fallacy to assume it could without looking at internal attacks or something Thing has endured. Maybe ask Immortal what feats he has of that.