Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin Appreciation 2018

[Lhynn]

For me the new 52 Tim his kind of an amalgamation of him and Lonnie Machin. There are parts in his new 52 origin that remind me more an Lonnies than on Tims origin.

Actually in the thread about pitching your own story i wanted to specify that NuTim was actually Loonie, too bad he already made an appearance on New 52, otherwise it would have fit perfectly.

[Aahz]

Actually in the thread about pitching your own story i wanted to specify that NuTim was actually Loonie, too bad he already made an appearance on New 52, otherwise it would have fit perfectly.

Since Tim changed his name in his origin it could have worked. And since they were both original created as new Robin to replace Jason it would have kind of made sense.

btw. after his appaerance in this End game tie in (wich was kind of a #0 issue for We Are Robin), I was actually hoping Lonnie to pop up in We are Robin but unfortunatly he didn't appear again sofar.

[Lhynn]

Since Tim changed his name in his origin it could have worked. And since they were both original created as new Robin to replace Jason it would have kind of made sense.

Had no idea about this. Source?

after his appaerance in this End game tie in (wich was kind of a #0 issue for We Are Robin), I was actually hoping Lonnie to pop up in We are Robin but unfortunatly he didn't appear again sofar.

Nu52 Tim being Loonie just fits. Him being tech saavy, his computer expertise, his drive, him being an activist, etc.

[Aahz]

Had no idea about this. Source?

It is from this interview with Allan Grant.

Another creation for the character was Anarky. Is it true the character was originally dreamed up as the potential third Robin?

Yes. I knew Robin was going to die, and figured we'd need a replacement. I wanted a kid whose beliefs were not the same as Batman's, in fact whose beliefs would clash with Batman's. I didn't want any dead parents who needed to be revenged. I wanted a kid who could think.

What I didn't know, until the script arrived on my desk, is that Marv Wolfman had already created the new Robin. Bastard.

Nu52 Tim being Loonie just fits. Him being tech saavy, his computer expertise, his drive, him being an activist, etc.

He lacks Lonnies "beliefs" but appart from this many elements, were very Lonnie like. Like having completely normal (not super rich) parents, being a genius (and not just smart) and the thing with hacking bank accounts and giving the money to the poor (thats what Lonnie did in the story when he and Tim had their first encounter).

I think that could have actually been a more interesting Robin than Tim, but probably a less likeable one.

[WhipWhirlwind]

Ugh I totally forgot about the "drake isn't his real name" thing. We really just need to get rid of that completely.

[Lhynn]

I think that could have actually been a more interesting Robin than Tim, but probably a less likeable one.

I disagree, i found very interesting that Tim was a nice guy, that he was much like the heroes of the past, a very antiquated character, a good student and a good kid. Tired of reading about troubled kids that do what they do for personal reasons. Tim represented the ideal of a young hero and i found that old concept unique for in his generation.

[Aahz]

I disagree, i found very interesting that Tim was a nice guy, that he was much like the heroes of the past, a very antiquated character, a good student and a good kid. Tired of reading about troubled kids that do what they do for personal reasons. Tim represented the ideal of a young hero and i found that old concept unique for in his generation.

Lonnie wasn't troubled or had personal reasons for what he did, he had just more radical believes.
The moral conflict between him and Bruce could have resulted in some interesting stories (like Diplomats Son), but I doubt that it would have worked on the long run.

Tim was nice and likeable character and enjoyable to read, but there wasn't much potential for this kind of conflict between him and Bruce.

[Aioros22]

It is from this interview with Allan Grant.



He lacks Lonnies "beliefs" but appart from this many elements, were very Lonnie like. Like having completely normal (not super rich) parents, being a genius (and not just smart) and the thing with hacking bank accounts and giving the money to the poor (thats what Lonnie did in the story when he and Tim had their first encounter).

I think that could have actually been a more interesting Robin than Tim, but probably a less likeable one.

The more things come out about the inside mechanics of what was going on at the time, the more the bat office sings a new low.

No wonder O`Neil apologized about the whole thing years later.

[Lhynn]

The more things come out about the inside mechanics of what was going on at the time, the more the bat office sinks to a new low.

Why? How was that wrong?

[Aioros22]

In this case, the very especific thing about creators envisioning a new Robin-esque character while the former wasn`t yet dead.

The whole phone-call business is just what Miller described it at the time. Rotten business.

[Atlanta96]

In this case, the very especific thing about creators envisioning a new Robin-esque character while the former wasn`t yet dead.

The whole phone-call business is just what Miller described it at the time. Rotten business.

But fans didn't like Jason that much. They had good reason to get rid of him. They didn't do it perfectly but it was still understandable.

[Lhynn]

Aye, to get to the point to create a campaign with the whole "save robin" thing meant that they had to have been talking about how no one liked jason and that he maybe had to go for months. Wasnt a spur of the moment thing.

[Aioros22]

But fans didn't like Jason that much. They had good reason to get rid of him. They didn't do it perfectly but it was still understandable.

Lol, what? Sorry, but no. There`s no good reason to make a character a sacrifising lamb. If he wasn`t well written then it is up to the writers to change that. If writers aren`t competent, get writers with a clear direction to do the job. If they didn`t like the character then exit him out accordingly instead of creating a poll to pass the hot potato around.

The "fans didn`t like Jason that much" is rubbish. The poll was won by a small margin and O`Neil has especified twice since then how it was one person who continuily set those numbers up. He`s been too especif about that theory when he apologized for having it been a lie.

Jason may have been divisive but he wasn`t hated. And its only natural when your predecessor was the original take.

[Aioros22]

Aye, to get to the point to create a campaign with the whole "save robin" thing meant that they had to have been talking about how no one liked jason and that he maybe had to go for months. Wasnt a spur of the moment thing.

The way O`Neil describes it initially, it wasn`t planned that ahead either.

Bottom line, they wanted to create controvery and got it.

[Aioros22]

But what gets me, is how contradicting several directions are about the matter. Starlin was on the take that "Robin" was a concept he hated. He seemed to want the comic Batman to take the same ground as the popular movie (which came around the same time). Granted some stories at the time were popular because they took that approach, but so were others were Jason/Robin was essential for the core of said sucess. A Dark Knight Returns without Jason and a Robin isn`t the same thing, for example. But then you read how Wolfman and Grant had obviously opposing views and despite what O`Neil said (he`s been especifically apologetic about his famous remark on his Jason`s return would be a sleazy stunt) were already lining up someone else.

Starlin, very obviously, wasn`t already in the helm by the time "A Lonely Place of Dying" comes in. We have contraditorial statements and directions here, gentlemen. In the big picture, it`s obvious Robin is essential for the franchise and I`ve always defended such a theory. But I never liked or respected the office to make a lamb out of a sacrifise. The cost was post-death writers, for years, always refering Jason as this error101, when all the time he was alive, even during DITF by the writer who admitadly hated the concept, he ws never described as such a thing. Someone with different struggles than Grayson? Sure. But that`s a narrative plus, not a detritment.

I think it shows the point on how Jason was mostly presented when compared to the newcomer in Tim and I think that only helped Tim being liked and accepted. It`s very obvious and it`s not a knock on Tim, is just dirty business all around.