Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin Appreciation 2018

[shadowsgirl]

It's very similar to Bruce's disguise from The Dark Knight Returns

[shadowsgirl]

[KrustyKid]

I was just stating my opinion on their fighting capabilities. I agree with you. I've got no problem at this point with Damian beating Tim, but it should have been a real fight. (In terms of overall capabilities, Damian, Tim, and Steph are very close in my mind)

I've read very little of Robin WAR, and I have zero desire to read more.

If we're talking raw fighting ability I'd say Steph and Tim are close, given that Steph has less bad showings I'd give her the slight edge over Tim. I honestly feel Damian is an entire tier above the two currently. He's already beaten Tim twice in the New-52, Damian also kept up with Deathstroke for a bit. I can't see Tim and Steph managing something like that even together.

[shadowsgirl]

If we're talking raw fighting ability I'd say Steph and Tim are close, given that Steph has less bad showings I'd give her the slight edge over Tim. I honestly feel Damian is an entire tier above the two currently. He's already beaten Tim twice in the New-52, Damian also kept up with Deathstroke for a bit. I can't see Tim and Steph managing something like that even together.

So what? Tim washed the floor with him several times in the old universe. New52 made Damian ridiculously strong in every area, while as you said, the writers reduced Tim's all abilities.

[Assam]

If we're talking raw fighting ability I'd say Steph and Tim are close, given that Steph has less bad showings I'd give her the slight edge over Tim. I honestly feel Damian is an entire tier above the two currently. He's already beaten Tim twice in the New-52, Damian also kept up with Deathstroke for a bit. I can't see Tim and Steph managing something like that even together.

In terms of pure martial abilities, I agree with what you said. However, between Tim's intelligence (I know Damian is very smart as well but he doesn't rely on his brains as much in combat) and Steph's off-the-cuff thinking and resourcefulness (Which I think is only possibly matched by Dick and Cass), the two could each hold their own with Damian. Frankly, I'd say Tim and Steph as Pre-Flashpoint Red Robin and Batgirl are flat-out superior to Damian in skill, because while the Nu52 buffed Damian, Tim got nerfed, and Steph still lacks feats.

[RedBird]

How do you guys rate fighting abilities anyway? Is is all based on 'showings'? If thats the case then Batman could on any scale be the best of worst fighter ever considering how many times he absolutely annihilates his enemies (when the writing call for it) or is thrashed and completely rendered helpless (when the writing calls for it). See where I'm going with this.

I mean, its all based on whatever the plot needs to happen, not really 'who is the better fighter'. I love Steph but Tom King could have Steph beat Batman to a pulp in the next issue of TEC and I wouldnt consider that to add to her rep or consider her more capable because of it, I'd cry fowl play cause based on what I know of the two characters that does not fit nor make sense of both her training and the length of time she has dedicated to said training.


Me personally I look at their skillset, training, along with various real world aspects such as size, age and weight to also judge HOW their style may evolve. DC writers dont think that far ahead though, they just write the winner of a story because thats what the plot needed. Just like that Robin War thing between Damian and Tim which was the result of lazy writing, not based on capability, (writers dont care) but based on, like I said before, deceitful marketing.

[shadowsgirl]

Does everyone really forget what happened? Tim said that he isn't going to fight with Damian. He didn't even try to do anything. He just stood there and wanted to talk with him. It wasn't a fight, and the writing was pathetic.

[KrustyKid]

In terms of pure martial abilities, I agree with what you said. However, between Tim's intelligence (I know Damian is very smart as well but he doesn't rely on his brains as much in combat) and Steph's off-the-cuff thinking and resourcefulness (Which I think is only possibly matched by Dick and Cass), the two could each hold their own with Damian. Frankly, I'd say Tim and Steph as Pre-Flashpoint Red Robin and Batgirl are flat-out superior to Damian in skill, because while the Nu52 buffed Damian, Tim got nerfed, and Steph still lacks feats.

Me personally, I feel current Damian could beat both Tim and Steph at the same time (high difficulty). Tim alone has zero credible victories, and has lost every battle he has been in against anyone note worthy. Heck, even a no name like Manchester Black owned Tim in TT. Steph has zero feats that put her on par, let alone near Damian in pure skill. Sure Tim is smart (so is Damian), and Steph may be unpredictable, but I think the large gap in battle skill gives Damian the majority.

If this were Pre-52 Steph and Tim it would be a different story.

[KrustyKid]

Does everyone really forget what happened? Tim said that he isn't going to fight with Damian. He didn't even try to do anything. He just stood there and wanted to talk with him. It wasn't a fight, and the writing was pathetic.

Tim showed not only the inability to dodge, but also got knocked out with a single punch. His skill and durability really got put into question at this point.

[shadowsgirl]

But why we discuss New52 Tim, when Tim was a victim of the reboot? The real Tim died in 2011! It doesn't matter what happened since then, because it wasn't the real Tim. It was a fake, an evil doppelganger, call him as you want, because the REAL Timothy Jackson Drake Wayne doesn't appeared since his Red Robin series ended.

[KrustyKid]

How do you guys rate fighting abilities anyway? Is is all based on 'showings'? If thats the case then Batman could on any scale be the best of worst fighter ever considering how many times he absolutely annihilates his enemies (when the writing call for it) or is thrashed and completely rendered helpless (when the writing calls for it). See where I'm going with this.

I mean, its all based on whatever the plot needs to happen, not really 'who is the better fighter'. I love Steph but Tom King could have Steph beat Batman to a pulp in the next issue of TEC and I wouldnt consider that to add to her rep or consider her more capable because of it, I'd cry fowl play cause based on what I know of the two characters that does not fit nor make sense of both her training and the length of time she has dedicated to said training.


Me personally I look at their skillset, training, along with various real world aspects such as size, age and weight to also judge HOW their style may evolve. DC writers dont think that far ahead though, they just write the winner of a story because thats what the plot needed. Just like that Robin War thing between Damian and Tim which was the result of lazy writing, not based on capability, (writers dont care) but based on, like I said before, deceitful marketing.

I bolded all the points that go into how I would rank ones fighting ability. Along with that would be character statements. Let's take Harper for example. In Batman Eternal when getting trained by Tim at one point, she came out and said something to the affect of "I already know all the computer stuff. When do I get to train with Batman and learn all the fighting styles." That there would imply Tim isn't much of a fighter, and simply just the computer guy. That coupled in with his low showings is why one can argue he is at the bottom of the barrel in the Bat Family when it comes to fighting skill.

[Assam]

But why we discuss New52 Tim, when he was a victim of the reboot? The real Tim died in 2011! It doesn't matter what happened since then, because it wasn't the real Tim. It was a fake, an evil doppelganger, call him as you want, because the REAL Timothy Jackson Drake Wayne doesn't appeared since his Red Robin series ended.

Nah, the Tim we know and love was last seen alive and well during Convergence getting back together with Steph, and Cass getting frustrated at them acting like a couple. (We all know she was just jealous. )

And yes, it's my headcanon that the DCU that had 10 years stolen from it was an exact copy of the GoodDCU, and the characters we know and love are still where we left them, their histories fully intact.

[KrustyKid]

But why we discuss New52 Tim, when Tim was a victim of the reboot? The real Tim died in 2011! It doesn't matter what happened since then, because it wasn't the real Tim. It was a fake, an evil doppelganger, call him as you want, because the REAL Timothy Jackson Drake Wayne doesn't appeared since his Red Robin series ended.

I was making a point. Everyone keeps saying how perfect New-52 Tim is at everything. I was merrily pointing out how untrue that is. He's really only good with tech, and even then his systems still get hacked every other issue.

[Frontier]

I think - if we're talking fighting skills in general - Damian has more efficient training and skills compared to Tim and Steph and has more extensive training, but both would probably be able to outsmart or use his own strength against him in a fight. Particularly his aggression.

And yes, I'm also talking about pre-Flashpoint Tim and Steph

[KrustyKid]

I think - if we're talking fighting skills in general - Damian has more efficient training and skills compared to Tim and Steph and has more extensive training, but both would probably be able to outsmart or use his own strength against him in a fight. Particularly his aggression.

And yes, I'm also talking about pre-Flashpoint Tim and Steph

I feel Pre-52 Tim outright beats Damian.

Current Tim<<<Current Damian. I don't see Tim using Damian's aggression to his advantage, for the simple fact Damian will get in his head and throw him(Tim) off of his game as he has already proven he can do. That's another thing about New-52 Tim, he is far less level headed than the former. I don't see Rebirth Tim beating Damian in any form or fashion, unless it is a hacking match. Then we would have ourselves a show, lol