Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin Appreciation 2018

[CPSparkles]

Batman & Robin #20

The BatFam getting ready for movie night!

[TheCape]

Man, Assam make me see this story with different eyes after thinking about the movie scene.

Is still cute, in spite everything.

[shadowsgirl]

[shadowsgirl]

[Outside_85]

Not every first time requires the sky to open and birds to sing, folks

It would certainly make sure a lot of shy people loosing their nerves at the last moment.

[shadowsgirl]

Hehe

[millernumber1]

As part of my quest to think about "what would Steph's journey be like if she hadn't become Batgirl," I have reread Robin #175-183, Gotham Gazette #1-2, and Red Robin #15 and 20, which are all of Steph's appearances under the pen of Fabian Nicieza. And I have to say...all the complaints about super hacker Tim for the past several years make me wonder what people were saying back in 2008-2011. Because Nicieza's plots were really incoherent. He has Tim constantly monologuing internally about how he's planning this and that, but how in the world were any of the actions Tim took during Batman RIP and the chaos that followed actually the instigators of anything that happened. It's almost exactly like the superhacking - informed ability that Tim says he did stuff, but it's just secret knowledge hidden from the reader until the author reveals that Tim knew stuff all along, but let it happen because it was all in the plan - and then the plan just falls apart anyway.

I'm not convinced that super-hacker Tim is such a bad thing, at this point. At least it's a skill, rather than "Tim just knows everything."

[Dataweaver]

FWIW, I wasn't keen on Fabian's depiction of Tim. My favorite part of the Red Robin series was Christopher Yost's run, issues #1–12 — everything before Fabian returned and had Tim repeat one of Batman's biggest mistakes by putting together the Hit List. It was during Yost's run that Tim earned Ras al-Ghul's respect as a worthy foe: he ended up calling Tim “Detective”, a designate he had previously reserved exclusively for Bruce.

[CPSparkles]

FWIW, I wasn't keen on Fabian's depiction of Tim. My favorite part of the Red Robin series was Christopher Yost's run, issues #1–12 — everything before Fabian returned and had Tim repeat one of Batman's biggest mistakes by putting together the Hit List. It was during Yost's run that Tim earned Ras al-Ghul's respect as a worthy foe: he ended up calling Tim “Detective”, a designate he had previously reserved exclusively for Bruce.

You mean a designate he had previously reserved exclusively for Bruce, Dick and Jason? Ras has called all 3 Detective. Tim makes 4. Tim is a good detective but that claim isn't accurate.

[TheCape]

Not that i disagreed, i clearly remenber Ra's sort of calling Dick a Detective R:"Maybe apple doesn't fall far from the three" N:"i'm not like Bruce Ra's" R:"Keep telling yourself that". I'm pretty sure that he said something along the same lines to Bane and Jean Paul, but for the life of me, i can't remenber any instance when he said that to Jason (not that isn'ta good one) in the pre-flashpoint universe, i don't think that they even interacted all that much.

[millernumber1]

FWIW, I wasn't keen on Fabian's depiction of Tim. My favorite part of the Red Robin series was Christopher Yost's run, issues #1–12 — everything before Fabian returned and had Tim repeat one of Batman's biggest mistakes by putting together the Hit List. It was during Yost's run that Tim earned Ras al-Ghul's respect as a worthy foe: he ended up calling Tim “Detective”, a designate he had previously reserved exclusively for Bruce.

I do agree that Yost's stuff was much more mature and satisfying than FabNic. The whole "Collision" crossover was really cool, with Ra's respecting Tim (and trying to kill him), and Dick saving him. (Another point - FabNic's writing of Damian, though understandable because Tim and Damian have a different relationship than Steph and Damian, reminds me just how much I disliked Damian when he wasn't in Steph's series.)

[shadowsgirl]

Not that i disagreed, i clearly remenber Ra's sort of calling Dick a Detective R:"Maybe apple doesn't fall far from the three" N:"i'm not like Bruce Ra's" R:"Keep telling yourself that". I'm pretty sure that he said something along the same lines to Bane and Jean Paul, but for the life of me, i can't remenber any instance when he said that to Jason (not that isn'ta good one) in the pre-flashpoint universe, i don't think that they even interacted all that much.

Ra's called Jason "young detective" in the New52, but I don't think it was a compliment.

[TheCape]

I'm not convinced that super-hacker Tim is such a bad thing, at this point. At least it's a skill, rather than "Tim just knows everything.

It has been a while since i read boths FabNic runs, but i generally agreed that of the 2 Red Robin writters, Yost was the best, but the reason of why i sort of went with the "Tim knows something that the audience doesn't know for then to fail anyway" (what happened with Amstrong's brothers is the first example that comes to mind), a theme of his run was about how far Tim was willing to go with his manipulations and scheme and what would he become (if you ask me he was going to the Tomorrow Tim route), maybe the execution is nor all that could have been and i would have prefer another writter to tackle it (some of that dialogue was soo bad), but i thougth that was at least interesting, regardless if i still find Tim likable or not.
Althougth i had come to prefer Tynion over Lodbell's take, mostly because in spite of the over the top hacking, he treats Tim as a characther and is having facing his most deepest fears and flaws, unlike in TT when he felt more like a plot device and hey at least he is self aware enougth to not write a solo with him.

[TheCape]

Another point - FabNic's writing of Damian, though understandable because Tim and Damian have a different relationship than Steph and Damian, reminds me just how much I disliked Damian when he wasn't in Steph's series.)

Damian has so much bagage against Tim (and Cassandra) and vice versa, that it was impossible for then to get along, at least during that period of time.

[godisawesome]

As part of my quest to think about "what would Steph's journey be like if she hadn't become Batgirl," I have reread Robin #175-183, Gotham Gazette #1-2, and Red Robin #15 and 20, which are all of Steph's appearances under the pen of Fabian Nicieza. And I have to say...all the complaints about super hacker Tim for the past several years make me wonder what people were saying back in 2008-2011. Because Nicieza's plots were really incoherent. He has Tim constantly monologuing internally about how he's planning this and that, but how in the world were any of the actions Tim took during Batman RIP and the chaos that followed actually the instigators of anything that happened. It's almost exactly like the superhacking - informed ability that Tim says he did stuff, but it's just secret knowledge hidden from the reader until the author reveals that Tim knew stuff all along, but let it happen because it was all in the plan - and then the plan just falls apart anyway.

I'm not convinced that super-hacker Tim is such a bad thing, at this point. At least it's a skill, rather than "Tim just knows everything."

The reason a guy like me sees FabNic's Red Robin as superior to hacker!Tim is at least partially a fundamental difference in the way both approach problem solving. FabNic's Tim follows the old "Unspoken Plan Guarantee" (as did Yost's), but the plans still usually involve other characters and some kind of logic, even if strained a bit:

- Cooperate with other characters who are only mid-level on the criminal food chain to destabilize the entire criminal structure, thus requiring a mystery subplot involving Lynx, her personality, proposed backstory, and Tim having to make a judgement call; attempt to use one single plan to control, compromise, or capture both a pair of corrupt cops and supervillains they can contact, thus using a convuluted body double plan to get Scarab captured, Tim's ID covered, and corrupt cops flipped to Jason Bard's stooges.

The "Chessmaster" archetype also benefits from a more dramatic and plot-intrinsic way to have the hero get in trouble. People are easily the biggest variable of all, so having a plan fall apart is totally plausible, no matter who or what it is:

-Damian discovers Tim's emergency plans, and expresses his anger and sorrow over being targeted, causing a fight and a breakdown in plans; Tim can be ready for Anarky not caring about his parents, but he can't know they'll bring their kids along; the Assassins tournament is simply too big for Tim not to need some serious backup.

In contrast, Hacker!Tim, on a fundamental level, relies on largely fictional "magic" that very rarely gets explained:

- Problem shows up, so Tim gives technological exposition, problem solved.

It's much less colorful and involved. It's kind of like comparing Deep Space 9, with an ensemble cast and a focus on dramatic use of cunning and intelligence, even when it falters, versus Voyager, where the problem will probably just be solved by Tom Paris tech-tech-I G something they can shoot the problem with.