Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin Appreciation 2018

[Caivu]

Whoops, didn't mean to put Harper there. Meant to put her equal to Duke. But yeah, I would say Kate, Steph and Selina are equal. Can I ask why you don't think so?

Steph has the least amount of training of any of the Bat-characters besides Duke and Harper (AFAIK, anyway), and has said on-panel that she's physically the weakest of any of them. I know Catwoman said at one point she's a natural, but that only goes so far. Selina I could see having an edge in agility (in fact I'd be astonished if she didn't). I'll admit I'm not familiar with her currently, but I haven't seen anything that would make me think she's a particularly strong or exceptional fighter, just a very competent one.

SvFL?

Not familiar with that one...

Spider-Man vs Fire Lord. It may not be used around here; I got into a spot of trouble over on Rumbles a few days ago for thinking the rules there are the same as other similar forums.

Anyway, it basically means a high-level feat that is a massive outlier for what the character is usually capable of, without a reason. They usually never count when doing battle-y stuff.

[phantom1592]

Cass has been around for 17 years

Ok... then we're on the same page. 17 years ago, she was a brand new character who walked in better then the established people. Not something I'm a fan of.

If Harper walks up and kicks in Shiva's teeth... I still don't legitimize it because the character didn't really 'earn' her rank through on-panel training and experience.

YMMV but I never liked Cass for that.

[The Whovian]

Steph has the least amount of training of any of the Bat-characters besides Duke and Harper (AFAIK, anyway), and has said on-panel that she's physically the weakest of any of them. I know Catwoman said at one point she's a natural, but that only goes so far. Selina I could see having an edge in agility (in fact I'd be astonished if she didn't). I'll admit I'm not familiar with her currently, but I haven't seen anything that would make me think she's an exceptional fighter, just a very competent one.

Steph was trained by Bruce, Cass and the BOP. She is definitely Kate's equal.

[Caivu]

Steph was trained by Bruce, Cass and the BOP. She is definitely Kate's equal.

Oh, I was talking about current Steph. If you mean pre-Flashpoint, then yes, I'd agree that they'd be close enough to make no difference.

[The Whovian]

Ok... then we're on the same page. 17 years ago, she was a brand new character who walked in better then the established people. Not something I'm a fan of.

There's a good reason why she was immediately better. She was trained by Cain, the LoA, Alpha and others. Later on, Shiva trained her. But the biggest difference is because, like Shiva, she has the ability to "read" her opponents' body language and know what they're going to do before they even move.

[Lhynn]

If we're going just based on what's been shown on-panel (based on everything I've seen)

, I think the order on the whole would go:

Bruce=Dick>Jason=Azrael>Kate=Cass=Damian>Tim=Babs> Selina>Steph>Duke=Harper.

Azrael is an interesting case, pre 52 he was shown as being stronger than batman, back in the 80s, but batman has grown a lot, and so has tim and the rest, jean paul not so much. This pre flashpoint, new 52 jean paul has been shown being a weak willed quick to anger idiot, and has been dispatched by Tim on a 1 on 1 right before Tim actually destroyed the HQ of the order of saint dumas along with jason, with a carefully coordinated plan, which was in all honesty well thought out. Even in his latest showing azrael was dispatched by a fake batman with a couple tricks.

It needs to be said that the skill spectrum from Bruce to Babs, at least, is not very wide.

Its actually pretty huge. The gauntlets of enemies batman runs through are pretty insane. I doubt even dick would be able to pull through those.

As for tim, hes gave connor a run for his money, he made trigon retreat (which is hella dumb, but oh well), and he beat azrael easily, then proceeded to save his life and convince him to abandon the order of dumas. Even in gotham gang wars and the battle for the cowl tim beat jason handily while holding back, all the while jason was shooting to kill and had to bury a batarang on tims chest to even have a chance and even this development because there needed to be a reason to force dick to intercede and take the mantle. Jason was very poorly trained, because his tenure didnt last long, so he doesnt have much of a fighting style.

All those characters are not wildly out of each other's skill range.

I disagree, endurance wise and feats wise or skill wise barbara has absolutely nothing on bruce. We are talking about a girl that knows some karate and a guy thats almost a prodigy and that has learned almost every martial art from the best teaches world around. With Tim is much closer, but he is still stronger, more resistant, better prepared and overall superior in a combat situation.

Cass is an interesting case because she just hasn't had enough time to show off her skills yet, so despite what Bruce says much of that hasn't been displayed yet, and like new Shiva a lot of her successes so far have had mitigating factors to them.

Sure, i agree. We havent seen enough to give her a firm place, but i doubt she wont be as strong as batman when we do get there.

I'm interested in seeing what current LoA training looks like now! Do you have some examples/issues?

As far as i can tell, Ras has personal time with each assassin, he both trains them and acts as sort of a counselor for them. They are all handpicked by him and taught some of the deadliest martial arts in the world. This is to instill blind loyalty. Their elite assassins have all their own personal method of killing using the leagues well documented knowledge. Each and every one of Ras elite assassin good enough to put up a fight against a robin. The elite assassins of the previous masters are much stronger and better trained.
A lot of this can be seen in Red Robin, when Tim starts working with the league, some of it with batmans. And i think its basically one of the most indepth views at the LoA inner workings, from the finances to the distribution of bases worldwide to their best assassins methods. We also see some of it during the resurrection of ras al ghul storyline.

Damian is actually the weakest of the robins pre and post new 52, the most inexperienced and the one with the worst judgement in a battle, batmans words (in B&R eternal). He actually sort of gives you a breakdown saying basically that its dick > tim > jason > himself in a very out of character moment probably meant to apologize for showing him oneshoting both jason and tim at the same time with a single move on robin war (where we also see the robin war kids going toe to toe with elite talons and gaining the upper hand, for extra wtfkery).
Anyway, his character has always been that of the arrogant kid with a big mouth.

[The Whovian]

Oh, I was talking about current Steph. If you mean pre-Flashpoint, then yes, I'd agree that they'd be close enough to make no difference.

Yeah, pre-flashpoint. Although, in the New 52 Steph has been trained by Selina. I know that doesn't make her their equal, but then it gets kind of hard to rank them over minute differences. You're probably right though, New 52 Steph should be ranked lower. I just have a soft spot for her.

[Atlanta96]

I wouldn't complain about that, but mine would be:

Bruce > Dick > Cass > Jason = Tim = Damian > Kate = Babs = Steph = Harper = Selina = Azrael > Duke

Tim can kick Damian's ass if he wants to. He's done it at least twice. Only reason Damian took out Tim in Robin War was bad writing.

[Atlanta96]

Honestly, this is why I hated Cass from the moment she appeared. Some brand new nothing character walks in off the street and is instantly introduced as being better than all the sidekicks... and even Bruce himself??

UGggghh...

Let a new character earn their ranks please...

Agreed, but at least Cass was a distinct character we hadn't really seen before in the Bat-Books, so I still like her. Harper and Duke are redundant knockoffs.

[The Whovian]

Azrael is an interesting case, pre 52 he was shown as being stronger than batman, back in the 80s, but batman has grown a lot, and so has tim and the rest, jean paul not so much. This pre flashpoint, new 52 jean paul has been shown being a weak willed quick to anger idiot, and has been dispatched by Tim on a 1 on 1 right before Tim actually destroyed the HQ of the order of saint dumas along with jason, with a carefully coordinated plan, which was in all honesty well thought out. Even in his latest showing azrael was dispatched by a fake batman with a couple tricks.

Its actually pretty huge. The gauntlets of enemies batman runs through are pretty insane. I doubt even dick would be able to pull through those.

As for tim, hes gave connor a run for his money, he made trigon retreat (which is hella dumb, but oh well), and he beat azrael easily, then proceeded to save his life and convince him to abandon the order of dumas. Even in gotham gang wars and the battle for the cowl tim beat jason handily while holding back, all the while jason was shooting to kill and had to bury a batarang on tims chest to even have a chance and even this development because there needed to be a reason to force dick to intercede and take the mantle. Jason was very poorly trained, because his tenure didnt last long, so he doesnt have much of a fighting style.


I disagree, endurance wise and feats wise or skill wise barbara has absolutely nothing on bruce. We are talking about a girl that knows some karate and a guy thats almost a prodigy and that has learned almost every martial art from the best teaches world around. With Tim is much closer, but he is still stronger, more resistant, better prepared and overall superior in a combat situation.


Sure, i agree. We havent seen enough to give her a firm place, but i doubt she wont be as strong as batman when we do get there.


As far as i can tell, Ras has personal time with each assassin, he both trains them and acts as sort of a counselor for them. They are all handpicked by him and taught some of the deadliest martial arts in the world. This is to instill blind loyalty. Their elite assassins have all their own personal method of killing using the leagues well documented knowledge. Each and every one of Ras elite assassin good enough to put up a fight against a robin. The elite assassins of the previous masters are much stronger and better trained.
A lot of this can be seen in Red Robin, when Tim starts working with the league, some of it with batmans. And i think its basically one of the most indepth views at the LoA inner workings, from the finances to the distribution of bases worldwide to their best assassins methods. We also see some of it during the resurrection of ras al ghul storyline.

I agree with everything you've said up until this point below:

Damian is actually the weakest of the robins pre and post new 52, the most inexperienced and the one with the worst judgement in a battle, batmans words (in B&R eternal). He actually sort of gives you a breakdown saying basically that its dick > tim > jason > himself in a very out of character moment probably meant to apologize for showing him oneshoting both jason and tim at the same time with a single move on robin war (where we also see the robin war kids going toe to toe with elite talons and gaining the upper hand, for extra wtfkery).
Anyway, his character has always been that of the arrogant kid with a big mouth.

Damian is VERY skilled. He was not only trained by the LoA, but also by Batman himself. He even stalemated Tim. And I'd rather have Damian watching my back in a fight over Jason. Damian is a natural.

[The Whovian]

Tim can kick Damian's ass if he wants to. He's done it at least twice. Only reason Damian took out Tim in Robin War was bad writing.

I only remember the one time when Tim was Red Robin that he beat Damian out right.

[Atlanta96]

I only remember the one time when Tim was Red Robin that he beat Damian out right.

He did once in the New 52 also. Don't remember where, though. I only saw a scan. But it makes sense that Tim can clean Damians clock when they're on even ground. And after all Damians done to him, writers pretty much owe Tim a victory whenever they fight.

[Lhynn]

This was their fight, or the end of it at least, but it was pretty onesided. Hes a 10 year old kid for crying out loud, maybe in 6 years in the continuity well be seeing damian kicking everyones ass, maybe we wont. But his mouth writing checks his skill cant cash is what he is about.
Batman-Zone 016.jpg
(Batman and robin 10, i think damian takes on jason and dick on 11-12, but honestly cant be bothered to check right now)

[The Whovian]

This is the previous page to that and Damian pretty much does the same thing to Tim. They're both fairly equal:

[The Whovian]

And this shows just how clearly superior he is to Jason, as Damian kicks the snot out of him: