Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin Appreciation 2018

[Lhynn]

This is the previous page to that and Damian pretty much does the same thing to Tim. They're both fairly equal:

Couple of punches and kicks does not an equal match make. Those fights worked more on an ideological level tho. He beat jason there because he had the upper hand psychologically speaking, and he almost does the same with Tim. Both Tim and Jason were caught unprepared by the midget, because he messed with their minds before the fight started, and even during the course of it. But Tim is a lot more clear headed than jason, so he put his thoughts in order and beat him decisively.

B&RD.jpg
Anyway, this kinda shows what i mean.

[SXVA]

The whole Damian thing is so annoying. This little kid isn't going to be going around matching very experienced and capable people. Talk about a forced character. That's what turned me against Damian. If it showed him surprising people in more believable ways and having great potential and then we watched him grow into a very capable character that would've been pleasing. Jumping out the gate as some kind of little kid Bruce Lee being able to match just about anyone is downright laughable.

The only redeemable thing to do is make any of those fights fantasies in Damian's mind and spin it as dreaming to be like them when he reaches a more capable and experienced level. And to think he's going to be leading the Teen Ttitans. *SMH*.

[Aahz]

But Tim was in charge of working on Jean Paul's training,

But Jean Paul is strange case since his skills come from the "System" and not from training.

and Bruce absolutely refused to let Tim in the field until he was better trained then Jason. Those were distinctive plot points. Hence the whole Shiva/Robin 1 Miniseries... So bare bones, those lists look pretty good. At least as far as Selina-Steph go, I'm not sure where they'd be at.

But he had the very best trainers... and then years of on-panel experience to back it up. Tim is a lot more then just 'the computer guy'.

His training with Shiva wasn't very long (he was with her like maybe a week, and they spend most of the time tracking down King Snake, they had on panel like 2 sparing matches), and if you read his early stories, he wasn't that great of an martial artist, he got his ass kicked by Lynx several times, who is hardly a top tier fighter. In one story (in SECRET ORIGINS 80-PAGE GIANT) he even says that he wasn't as talented for the physical stuff as Dick and Jason were and still needs to work on it.

Even in gotham gang wars and the battle for the cowl tim beat jason handily while holding back, all the while jason was shooting to kill and had to bury a batarang on tims chest to even have a chance and even this development because there needed to be a reason to force dick to intercede and take the mantle. Jason was very poorly trained, because his tenure didnt last long, so he doesnt have much of a fighting style.

Jason had pre flashpoint arround 2 years of training by guys that Talia selected for him, and post flashpoint he got training by the All-Cast and the top guys of the League of Assassins (including Shiva, Bronze Tiger and Chishire). He is a highly trained assassin/fighter (and has talent for fighting), his biggest weakness is his anger who makes him sloppy but at least in his own series he overcame this by now. The problem is just that many writers don't acknowledge it and are constantly mishandling him and write him like he was an unskilled dumb brute, who heavily relies on his guns.

The whole Damian thing is so annoying. This little kid isn't going to be going around matching very experienced and capable people. Talk about a forced character. That's what turned me against Damian. If it showed him surprising people in more believable ways and having great potential and then we watched him grow into a very capable character that would've been pleasing. Jumping out the gate as some kind of little kid Bruce Lee being able to match just about anyone is downright laughable.

I have to agree, pre flashpoint that was handled better. He was still good back than but often overestimated himself. Know he he seems often even more skilled than Batman.

Thats for example how a "fight" between Damian and Jason looked like pre flashpoint, under morrisons pen. I really hate Morrisons take on Jason, but this seems much more fitting than what we got in the new 52.

[SXVA]

Yeah, there's no shame in starting from more in the middle ground of things and taking some defeats as you gain more experience and having some of the more established characters outshine you a bit. If anything that sort of makes the character more likable and relatable.

[Aahz]

Yeah, there's no shame in starting from more in the middle ground of things and taking some defeats as you gain more experience and having some of the more established characters outshine you a bit. If anything that sort of makes the character more likable and relatable.

Yeah, Streets of Gotham is fore that reason imo one of the best Damian storylines.

And Damian as the by far youngest character in Batfamily doesn't really need these showings to stand out.
Secenes like this are more damaging Tim and Jason role in the franchise than it is really pushing Damian. I'm still curious how they will handle this in the Teen Titans book, in the last movie they imo pushed Damian again at the expense of Beast Boy, Blue Beetle and Starfire.

[Lhynn]

His training with Shiva wasn't very long (he was with her like maybe a week, and they spend most of the time tracking down King Snake, they had on panel like 2 sparing matches), and if you read his early stories, he wasn't that great of an martial artist, he got his ass kicked by Lynx several times, who is hardly a top tier fighter. In one story (in SECRET ORIGINS 80-PAGE GIANT) he even says that he wasn't as talented for the physical stuff as Dick and Jason were and still needs to work on it.

Correction, he didnt start as a great martial artist, but then again, no one did (except maybe Connor Hawke, dude was a prodigy and a beast). Also yeah, hes not as agile as dick or as strong as jason, tim is an all-rounder.

Jason had pre flashpoint arround 2 years of training by guys that Talia selected for him

League mook training, im impressed.

and post flashpoint he got training by the All-Cast and the top guys of the League of Assassins (including Shiva, Bronze Tiger and Chishire). He is a highly trained assassin/fighter (and has talent for fighting), his biggest weakness is his anger who makes him sloppy but at least in his own series he overcame this by now. The problem is just that many writers don't acknowledge it and are constantly mishandling him and write him like he was an unskilled dumb brute, who heavily relies on his guns.

He is actually a great marksman. Hes just not as good as the other more experienced robins in a fight. And all those names still dont come close to showing the results in training others that bruce has. Only one as impressive as bruce when it comes to training others would probably be david cain.

[Aahz]

Also yeah, hes not as agile as dick or as strong as jason, tim is an all-rounder.

Dick and Jason are probably both stronger and more agile (or as agile) than Tim.

League mook training, im impressed.

These guys afaik weren't league members, and since Talia also got Damian his training I would assume that she can get you very competent trainers.

He is actually a great marksman. Hes just not as good as the other more experienced robins in a fight.

He is a highly trained martial artists, and way more than just a masksmen (even is the writers often seem to forget it). And the flash backs to his pre Robin days kind of suggest that he had a talent for fighting.

And all those names still dont come close to showing the results in training others that bruce has. Only one as impressive as bruce when it comes to training others would probably be david cain.

Bronze Tiger and Shiva (and the All-Cast) are not impressive? And for half of Tims pre flashpoint career Bruce wasn't even arround (Knighfall, No Mans Land , Brentwood, Fugative, post R.I.P.) and post flashpoint they we all anyway just for a year or so with Bruce, so in total his time with Bruce wasn't much longer than Jasons in both continuities.

Even in Frank Millers Last Crusade (I know that it is non canon) his fighting skill is also the one thing Bruce praises about him, for me it seems that being a good fighter seems slowly to become a defining trait for him.

[Atlanta96]

Tim has definitely earned master combatant status by now. His inexperience might have been one of his defining traits during his early years, but after all his stories and victories he should only be less skilled than Dick, Bruce, and Cass Cain since he's also the smartest member of the Bat-Family aside from Bruce.

[Dataweaver]

What do you mean, “aside from Bruce”? Arguably, the only reason Bruce is better than Tim at detective work and the like are his added decades of experience. No, Tim's only rival for “smartest of the Bat-family” is Barbara Gordon, a.k.a. Oracle.

[WhipWhirlwind]

Tim has definitely earned master combatant status by now. His inexperience might have been one of his defining traits during his early years, but after all his stories and victories he should only be less skilled than Dick, Bruce, and Cass Cain since he's also the smartest member of the Bat-Family aside from Bruce.

I would add Jason to that list. Think he gets it due to experience, drive, and willingness to fight dirty.

[Atlanta96]

What do you mean, “aside from Bruce”? Arguably, the only reason Bruce is better than Tim at detective work and the like are his added decades of experience. No, Tim's only rival for “smartest of the Bat-family” is Barbara Gordon, a.k.a. Oracle.

I agree that when Tim is as old as Bruce, he'll be a superior detective and strategist. But at the moment he's still just the 2nd smartest, only because of his age and less experience. And also bad writers turning Tim into an incompetent pr*ck I guess.

And Barbara is a genius in her own right and is slightly better with computers than Tim (as Oracle, at least) Tim still outranks her intellectually, and will outrank her even more when he's older.

[Atlanta96]

I would add Jason to that list. Think he gets it due to experience, drive, and willingness to fight dirty.

Jason's fighting skills are the most inconsistent. Sometimes he's portrayed as skilled enough to take on 2 Bat-Family members at once, other times he seems weaker than everyone else, including Damian. I'd rank him below Tim, since he's not as cerebral and doesn't use as much strategy in his fights.

[The Whovian]

Couple of punches and kicks does not an equal match make.

Come on dude. Damian landed the same amount of hits on Tim, as Tim did on him. I know you like Tim a lot (I do too, BTW), but I think they're both equals.

B&RD.jpg
Anyway, this kinda shows what i mean.

That means nothing to me. Batman is always saying things like that to motivate his "family". He didn't want Damian getting a big head, so he pretty much is telling him what he needed to hear--that he's not all that just yet and he has a lot more work to do.

[The Whovian]

Dick and Jason are probably both stronger and more agile (or as agile) than Tim.

Nobody is as agile as Dick. I do however, think Tim is way more agile than Jason.

[The Whovian]

Tim has definitely earned master combatant status by now. His inexperience might have been one of his defining traits during his early years, but after all his stories and victories he should only be less skilled than Dick, Bruce, and Cass Cain since he's also the smartest member of the Bat-Family aside from Bruce.

I agree with this 100%