Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin Appreciation 2018

[The Whovian]

What do you mean, “aside from Bruce”? Arguably, the only reason Bruce is better than Tim at detective work and the like are his added decades of experience. No, Tim's only rival for “smartest of the Bat-family” is Barbara Gordon, a.k.a. Oracle.

This is just not true at all. Batman is considered the greatest detective in the DCU and a genius. Bruce was trained by several masters of detective work, one of which was Ducard.

And while Oracle is good, she's not on Bruce or Tim's level in this category.

[The Whovian]

I agree that when Tim is as old as Bruce, he'll be a superior detective and strategist. But at the moment he's still just the 2nd smartest, only because of his age and less experience. And also bad writers turning Tim into an incompetent pr*ck I guess.

And Barbara is a genius in her own right and is slightly better with computers than Tim (as Oracle, at least) Tim still outranks her intellectually, and will outrank her even more when he's older.

Preach on brother!

[The Whovian]

Jason's fighting skills are the most inconsistent. Sometimes he's portrayed as skilled enough to take on 2 Bat-Family members at once, other times he seems weaker than everyone else, including Damian. I'd rank him below Tim, since he's not as cerebral and doesn't use as much strategy in his fights.

I have him slightly below Tim and Damian. Jason's weakness is that you can get into his head and that in turn takes him off his game.

[phantom1592]

What do you mean, “aside from Bruce”? Arguably, the only reason Bruce is better than Tim at detective work and the like are his added decades of experience. No, Tim's only rival for “smartest of the Bat-family” is Barbara Gordon, a.k.a. Oracle.

Gotta remember that in most continuities... Bruce BUILT the computers, gear and tech that Tim excels at. Bruce has been seen working Teleporters and helping operate on Red Tornado... Tim is incredibly brilliant... but He's usually seen working with what's available and making it shine... where Bruce takes a problem (flying Man-bats, fear toxins, killer plants... and creates the PERFECT device that will win the day.

Tim has definitely earned master combatant status by now. His inexperience might have been one of his defining traits during his early years, but after all his stories and victories he should only be less skilled than Dick, Bruce, and Cass Cain since he's also the smartest member of the Bat-Family aside from Bruce.

I think Tim's 'inexperience' was also considered 'humility'. He was always a lot better then he claimed to be. Coming in under Jason's death-shadow he was always very cautious and careful about what he should jump into and what he should watch and wait on. When push came to shove he always prevailed... but he was always thinking he wasn't ready or good enough yet.

Bruce knew he was... or he wouldn't have been given the mask yet. The humility was one of my favorite Tim traits and one of the reasons I hate Damian so much. I've never been a fan of arrogant characters.

[Lhynn]

Come on dude. Damian landed the same amount of hits on Tim, as Tim did on him. I know you like Tim a lot (I do too, BTW), but I think they're both equals.

Until you realize its a 10 years old punching and kicking against a dude that has been shown punching through robots and cutting demon/gods and superman wannabes. Look im not really invested in Tim being the greatest fighter, it isnt his thing, neither is being the "tech kid" as shown in new 52. Tim has always been the humble kid with the brain, any intellectual endeavor hes set out to do has shown impressive results, be it detective work, electronics, hacking, genetics, security, etc. This is the guy i want to see more of.

A guy that fights to win, not to defeat his opponent but for a larger goal. The third most seasoned member of the batfamily and the batman of the teen justice league.

Bronze Tiger and Shiva (and the All-Cast) are not impressive?

Fighters? yes, teachers? nope

And for half of Tims pre flashpoint career Bruce wasn't even arround (Knighfall, No Mans Land , Brentwood, Fugative, post R.I.P.) and post flashpoint they we all anyway just for a year or so with Bruce, so in total his time with Bruce wasn't much longer than Jasons in both continuities.

Sure, but this time was solo field experience. Also during this time much of the training came from alfred, which is arguably as good a teacher as bruce.

Even in Frank Millers Last Crusade (I know that it is non canon) his fighting skill is also the one thing Bruce praises about him, for me it seems that being a good fighter seems slowly to become a defining trait for him.

Damian is a great fighter, but he is also a 10 year old kid, not much he can do about this until he grows up. Sides, if he was already as good as hes ever going to get hed be pretty boring as a character. Mark my words, Damian will probably become a far better combatant than any other on the batfam, hes got the training, hes got the drive and that seems to be his endgame. All he needs is training and experience, and fixing his attitude, which hes slowly doing.

[The Whovian]

Until you realize its a 10 years old punching and kicking against a dude that has been shown punching through robots and cutting demon/gods and superman wannabes.

In martial arts, size and age doesn't matter when it comes to skill and force. I used to teach martial arts in Seattle back in 1989 and I've been around it all of my life and I've seen some pretty amazing things. I've seen children hit harder than grown men. "Chi" isn't a comic book thing. It's real. I used to spar with my sensei's sensei once in a while back then and it was like hitting concrete. It hurt me more landing blows than it hurt him I can guarantee you that.

So yes, Damian is younger but he's been trained to hit just as hard.

[Aahz]

Coming in under Jason's death-shadow he was always very cautious and careful about what he should jump into and what he should watch and wait on.

Sorry but that is complete BS.
I just read the new collections of of Tims early time as Robin, basically all the mistakes Jason is always accused of including being nearly killed by the Joker because he tried to take him alone, disobeying Batman, going after KGBeast (who was at this time still the most dangerous fighter in Batmans Rogues gallery) to rescue a girl he had a crush on and nearly killing someone because he thought they had killed that girl. He only survived always because somebody showed up to rescue him.
He is hardly cautious and careful in these stories.

Fighters? yes, teachers? nope

You know that (pre flashpoint) Shiva was the one that Trained Batman after bane broke his back and and helped Cass after she lost her body language? Bronze Tiger was (also pre flashpoint) one of Cass trainers and trained Richard Dragon. And Durca and the All-Caste were just created to be Jasons teachers.

[Godlike13]

Ehh, size matters. There is a reason there is a weight class in competive fighting. Jason getting one shot or beat by Damin probably should not happen. Tim is different. He's not actually all that big, and usually Damian catches him off guard. Still I get why it would rub others the wrong way. Though at the same time your not necessarily meant to like it. To use wrestling terminology Damian acts often like a heel. When he beats someone up its not neccariarly meant to glorify him. Like when he came in and beat up Tim it wasn't meant to be about showing how much cooler he was then Tim. It was meant to piss the reader off. Get people to be like that little bastard.

This is comics though. These things happen. Damian has at least also been humbled on plenty of occasions.

[The Whovian]

Ehh, size matters.

I respectfully disagree. I've seen young kids literally beat up adults. Now, all things being equal, a man with the same skills as a young adult is going to hit harder because he has more mass and muscle.

There is a reason there is a weight class in competive fighting. Jason getting one shot by Damin probably should not happen. Tim is different. He's not actually all that big, and usually Damian catches him off guard. Still I get why it would rub others the wrong way. Though at the same as time your not necessarily meant to like it. To use wrestling terminology Damian acts more like heel. When he beats someone up its not neccariarly ment to glorify him. When he came in and beat up Tim it wasn't meant to be about showing how much cooler he was then Tim. It was ment to piss the reader off. Get people to be like that little bastard.

LOL! So true

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

It is really hard to quantify skill in post-86 Batman due to editorial and shifts in tone, Remember that the Dick vs. Bruce thing resulted in Dick being retconned into getting fired instead of leaving on his own, Batman became a Man-God like figure who could do anything which is partially why Morrison made Damian Wayne so uber skilled as a meta mockery at the ridiculous skill levels people have. How the Bat family operates is more akin to James Bond rather than the traditional detective work done in the Golden/Silver Age. Aside from Blackgate & Arkham do we know of any other jails in Gotham? How many of Batman's current villains will honestly see a day in court? Do they even log cases anymore? What fields of study are they most strong at? I don't respect any Bat ranking in skill as they are mostly absurd from Batman to Dick Grayson to Tim Drake to Cass Cain. They have all been trained to take on threats that range from petty thug to meta human and most arguments over who is better are fans opinion. I would like a Dick Grayson with skills reflective of training he received from Batman, Superman, Teen Titans rather than what he must be due to the compare and contrast game in Bat comics.

[Aahz]

Jason's fighting skills are the most inconsistent. Sometimes he's portrayed as skilled enough to take on 2 Bat-Family members at once, other times he seems weaker than everyone else, including Damian. I'd rank him below Tim, since he's not as cerebral and doesn't use as much strategy in his fights.

In pure Hand-to-Hand combat Tim is imo below Jason. With prep or gadgets he can win but Jason is also not to bad in this department (just looked at his fights with Bruce in Under the Hood).
But Jason is really inconsistent and it are unfortunately usually the big events when writers suddenly write him incompetent. But Tim was also not very impressive in the new 52 events (with exception of B&RE).

Sure, but this time was solo field experience. Also during this time much of the training came from alfred, which is arguably as good a teacher as bruce.

Alfred is a lot, but he is not really a fighter. And in stories with Tim he was usually just his assistant and driver, I can't remember a single story in one of the main continuities were Alfred acted as a Teacher.

I have him slightly below Tim and Damian. Jason's weakness is that you can get into his head and that in turn takes him off his game.

And Damian didn't got into Tims head when they fought?

[Aioros22]

Averagely there`s no way I`d put Damian or Tim even equal to Jason. The best single fights Damian have had since the reboot was exactly against Jason and in either instance it`s either running away or taking advantage of a drop guard. In most of the encounters he`s had with either, Jason has looked the better. Tim`s single best fight against Jason, outside the staged cage fight, was figthing on more or less equal terms against a blind Jason.

When talking about Damian, we need to settle one thing on the go. As per Jason`s own voice, he won`t go all out against "a kid". Tim might, because he`s closer in age and actually more prone to be pissed at Damian`s antics. You can reply saying Damian did that to Jason, when it actually, both dropped the guard by using the same mental game: Damian by pulling the death string and Jason the mother string. They both share similar emotional weakness.

If you add up how since the reboot his figthing background only expanded (even before actually, with "Lost Days") that only cements it for me. That isn`t to say Tim or Damian can`t win. They just wouldn`t steal the majority of them and I believe most writers would back that up. I`m obviously also counting how Jason`s done quite well against other trained MA, because well....I can.

People shouldn`t forget that back then Bruce spoke of Jason as someone who "took Dick`s training like a fish in the water". That was a 6 months period training, in the original pro crisis origin.

[Lhynn]

In pure Hand-to-Hand combat Tim is imo below Jason. With prep or gadgets he can win but Jason is also not to bad in this department (just looked at his fights with Bruce in Under the Hood).
But Jason is really inconsistent and it are unfortunately usually the big events when writers suddenly write him incompetent. But Tim was also not very impressive in the new 52 events (with exception of B&RE).

I disagree, Tim has beaten jason in almost every fight theyve had, and jason has only gotten the upper hand with dirty tricks and stuff meant to kill someone that holds back against him because he respects him and what he did as robin. When jason stuck that batarang on tims chest after tim had him handily beat i wanted to punch him hard in the face, dirty guy with no respect for human life i tell you.
Jason has actually shot people to escape from Tim after he had beat him and captured him. The difference both as fighters and as heroes is huge.

Alfred is a lot, but he is not really a fighter. And in stories with Tim he was usually just his assistant and driver, I can't remember a single story in one of the main continuities were Alfred acted as a Teacher.

Alfred is ex military, top sniper/marksman/doctor in the history of the british army, and an incredibly good detective. Also very educated gentleman, and most of those skills were passed on to Tim, from making a decent tea, to chess, detective work and criminology and even how to fold towels. Dude is the heart of batmans entire operation.
You should read robin btw, alfred has been with him most of the way when batman was out of reach.

[Aioros22]

Jason's fighting skills are the most inconsistent. Sometimes he's portrayed as skilled enough to take on 2 Bat-Family members at once, other times he seems weaker than everyone else, including Damian. I'd rank him below Tim, since he's not as cerebral and doesn't use as much strategy in his fights.

They haven`t been as inconsistant as some others, actually. Dick has been by far the king of that crown lately. Jason`s actually shown tactical skill against Dick, Tim, Bruce and Cassandra, if keeping it in the family..

His worst showings since he came back?

Damian and Barbara (new52). That`s it. His others fights tend to be competent. And his fight with Barbara was textually him being nice to her.

[Aioros22]

How about we list all of Tim and Jason`s fights?