Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin Appreciation 2018

[SXVA]

I disagree, Tim has beaten jason in almost every fight theyve had, and jason has only gotten the upper hand with dirty tricks and stuff meant to kill someone that holds back against him because he respects him and what he did as robin. When jason stuck that batarang on tims chest after tim had him handily beat i wanted to punch him hard in the face, dirty guy with no respect for human life i tell you.
Jason has actually shot people to escape from Tim after he had beat him and captured him. The difference both as fighters and as heroes is huge.


Alfred is ex military, top sniper/marksman/doctor in the history of the british army, and an incredibly good detective. Also very educated gentleman, and most of those skills were passed on to Tim, from making a decent tea, to chess, detective work and criminology and even how to fold towels. Dude is the heart of batmans entire operation.
You should read robin btw, alfred has been with him most of the way when batman was out of reach.

One cannot underestimate the value of good tea. Being serious. I love me some tea.

[Aioros22]

I disagree, Tim has beaten jason in almost every fight theyve had, and jason has only gotten the upper hand with dirty tricks and stuff meant to kill someone that holds back against him because he respects him and what he did as robin. When jason stuck that batarang on tims chest after tim had him handily beat i wanted to punch him hard in the face, dirty guy with no respect for human life i tell you.
Jason has actually shot people to escape from Tim after he had beat him and captured him. The difference both as fighters and as heroes is huge.

I agree. Tim would never, for example, use a crowbar.

Alfred is ex military, top sniper/marksman/doctor in the history of the british army, and an incredibly good detective. Also very educated gentleman, and most of those skills were passed on to Tim, from making a decent tea, to chess, detective work and criminology and even how to fold towels. Dude is the heart of batmans entire operation.
You should read robin btw, alfred has been with him most of the way when batman was out of reach.

You had me at folding towels.

[The Whovian]

And Damian didn't got into Tims head when they fought?

I'm saying that it's a general weakness of Jason's. He lets emotion get in the way of things very easily and opponents know it and use it against him. Tim doesn't have that same weakness in general.

[godisawesome]

Here's how I see the Pre-Flashpoint breakdown of the confrontations between the younger three male Robins. I find it hard to quantify Tim in the New 52 because of how OTT his skills were sometimes shown in Teen Titans; I'm not going to use information from a source that had Tim somehow stunning Superboy in a fistfight or seemingly incapacitating Trigon by impaling his eyes. Most of New 52 Tim's tactics and displays of ability were not governed by intelligent writing but by what Scott Lobdell and co though would make a good splash page; 90's Image writing at its worst.

Jason vs Tim: overall, these fights tended to showcase how Jason's physical advantages in terms of strength and reach continued to defeat Tim.
-Teen Titans fight by Geoff Johns. Jason dominates the fight, with a brief period where Tim manages to get in some serious hits with his staff, but the fight is effectively over once Jason tears the staff from him to beat him with it. Winner: Jason, cleanly.
-Robin showdown by Fabian Nicieza. Jason and Tim both use distance tactics, with Tim proving decent enough to actually avoid being shot and get in a good hit. Jason firing blindly gets Tim to take a few bullets for a thug, but the General interferes and Tim prevails. Winner: Tim, with interference.
-Battle of the Cowl duel by Tony Daniel. Arguably the most interestingly staged one, even if not written by an experienced writer and featuring the most unbalanced Jason, this has Jason rather cunningly use stealth to repeatedly damage Tim, has him dominate the fight, Tim seems to get the upper hand with a crowbar, but Jason's too fast and stabs him. Winner: Jason, cleanly.

I'm only using the two Tim and Damian fights I can immediate remember from Pre-Flashpoint, with an add on for New 52. Tim has a similar physical advantage that Jason has against him, but there is a greater focus on mental faculties in this fight.
-Son of Batman fight by Grant Morrison. Damian starts out with a surprise-grenade-in-a-decapitated-noggin move (unexpected), but Tim recovers and uses the Damian's offensive press to make Damian fight up hill and off the T-Rex. Damian then sucker punches Tim. This is fairly ambiguous in some ways; was Tim fighting back or trying to defuse the situation, was Damian really in danger from the fall, etc. Winner: Damian, though not without extenuating circumstances?
-Red Robin fight. Damian, angered by Tim's paranoia about him, cuts Tim's line. And since paranoia is made for things like that, Tim's ready, throws the villain they're pursuing into Damian, tackles Damian off the ledge, and looks pretty clearly like he's about to hand Damian his ass when DickBats interrupts. Winner: Tim, but not complete.
-Bonus: Batman and Robin fight, New 52. Oddly enough, this was the only offensive Bo Staff use I can remember of New 52 Tim Drake, and the only real Robin v Robin fight that headlined an issue of the arc. Tim's the first one to throw a punch this time, and it's pretty even, it's either a tie in the physical sense, or Tim's victory in a physical sense because at the end of the issue, he drives away on his bike and Damian's planted in a computer. But I think we can give the mental victory to Damian; he mostly wanted to lecture and troll Tim on the events of the Culling (easy pickings). So either Tim had enough control of the fight to leave it when he wanted to, or Damian won because Tim started the fight.

[Lhynn]

You had me at folding towels.

Hah, just to show you the extent of his education. Robins run was pretty great at showing a lot of the stuff that gets handwaved on other batman publications

[Kao]

Averagely there`s no way I`d put Damian or Tim even equal to Jason. The best single fights Damian have had since the reboot was exactly against Jason and in either instance it`s either running away or taking advantage of a drop guard. In most of the encounters he`s had with either, Jason has looked the better. Tim`s single best fight against Jason, outside the staged cage fight, was figthing on more or less equal terms against a blind Jason.

When talking about Damian, we need to settle one thing on the go. As per Jason`s own voice, he won`t go all out against "a kid". Tim might, because he`s closer in age and actually more prone to be pissed at Damian`s antics. You can reply saying Damian did that to Jason, when it actually, both dropped the guard by using the same mental game: Damian by pulling the death string and Jason the mother string. They both share similar emotional weakness.

If you add up how since the reboot his figthing background only expanded (even before actually, with "Lost Days") that only cements it for me. That isn`t to say Tim or Damian can`t win. They just wouldn`t steal the majority of them and I believe most writers would back that up. I`m obviously also counting how Jason`s done quite well against other trained MA, because well....I can.

People shouldn`t forget that back then Bruce spoke of Jason as someone who "took Dick`s training like a fish in the water". That was a 6 months period training, in the original pro crisis origin.

That's how I feel.

Dick is the acrobat. Jason is the fighter. Tim is the brains. Damien is the uberprodigy.

I love Tim but he literally got given the bo-staff cos he wasn't the best in combat and needed assistance.

[Atlanta96]

That's how I feel.

Dick is the acrobat. Jason is the fighter. Tim is the brains. Damien is the uberprodigy.

I love Tim but he literally got given the bo-staff cos he wasn't the best in combat and needed assistance.

Now that Tim has so many other characters to compete with for popularity, having him be a less skilled fighter doesn't really work for him the way it did when the Bat-Family wasn't as bloated. Having Tim repeatedly get his ass kicked by Jason or Damian will end up getting him dismissed as the lamest of Batmans allies, so they should definitely ramp up his fighting skills in 'Tec and all his future appearances.

[The Whovian]

Now that Tim has so many other characters to compete with for popularity, having him be a less skilled fighter doesn't really work for him the way it did when the Bat-Family wasn't as bloated. Having Tim repeatedly get his ass kicked by Jason or Damian will end up getting him dismissed as the lamest of Batmans allies, so they should definitely ramp up his fighting skills in 'Tec and all his future appearances.

I think he will as well. Tim is a much better fighter than people give him credit for.

[Aioros22]

Now that Tim has so many other characters to compete with for popularity, having him be a less skilled fighter doesn't really work for him the way it did when the Bat-Family wasn't as bloated. Having Tim repeatedly get his ass kicked by Jason or Damian will end up getting him dismissed as the lamest of Batmans allies, so they should definitely ramp up his fighting skills in 'Tec and all his future appearances.

I think in their own way writers should always expand their backgrounds, figthing abilities and styles included, but I feel most writers will head out the hierarchy between the boys on average. For example, I don`t think most would feel weird about Jason taking Tim more than 50% of the time. Tim`s skillset lends more on agility and formal MA. Jason`s skillset is assasination and mystical. He`s also bigger and physically stronger.

Damian should, for every obvious reason be at the bottom. Even comic book reasons.

And really, even in the 90`s when the family had other characters, even borrowing two by proxis like Vic Sage and Connor Hawke, Tim wasn`t exactly this figthing guy, was he? That was Jean Paul.

[The Whovian]

I think in their own way writers should always expand their backgrounds, figthing abilities and styles included, but I feel most writers will head out the hierarchy between the boys on average. For example, I don`t think most would feel weird about Jason taking Tim more than 50% of the time. Tim`s skillset lends more on agility and formal MA. Jason`s skillset is assasination and mystical. He`s also bigger and physically stronger.

Damian should, for every obvious reason be at the bottom. Even comic book reasons.

And really, even in the 90`s when the family had other characters, even borrowing two by proxis like Vic Sage and Connor Hawke, Tim wasn`t exactly this figthing guy, was he? That was Jean Paul.

In the 90's and on, it was Shiva = Cass, then Connor slightly below those two. Then you had the next tier with Batman, etc.

[The Whovian]

Here's Connor's fight with Shiva:

[The Whovian]

[The Whovian]

[The Whovian]

[Rac7d*]

I think in their own way writers should always expand their backgrounds, figthing abilities and styles included, but I feel most writers will head out the hierarchy between the boys on average. For example, I don`t think most would feel weird about Jason taking Tim more than 50% of the time. Tim`s skillset lends more on agility and formal MA. Jason`s skillset is assasination and mystical. He`s also bigger and physically stronger.

Damian should, for every obvious reason be at the bottom. Even comic book reasons.

And really, even in the 90`s when the family had other characters, even borrowing two by proxis like Vic Sage and Connor Hawke, Tim wasn`t exactly this figthing guy, was he? That was Jean Paul.

Why would Damian be at the bottom, He so balanced and his only handicapped by his size which he uses to his advantage, like in his deathroke fight, and soon the gap will close since he is aging. I pretty much expect him to be a beast by 15