Azzarello - The Final Judgement.

[HsssH]

It's irrelevant if you prefer not to get caught up in pesky details that create cause and effect, but according to your own criteria highlighted above both of these are plot holes.

The fact that fans reading had to come up with a theory as to why it happens merely highlights the fact that the hole is there in the first place.

Azz deliberately had Hera talking about Hyppolyta. We have theories not because it makes no sense, but because it was left like that on purpose.
As for the first one, so you are saying that run not showing how Diana learned about god mode "makes no sense"? Really? Omitting irrelevant details is not same as plot holes or making no sense. But please, carry on.

[chlj1]

Diana herself is the largest plot hole. Azzarello's fans carry on about how Diana is still compassionate. Where the hell did she get her value system from? From the murderous Amazons? The cruel and lying gods?

I was wondering myself where did WW get her value system from?? It seem to me in the reboot WW has compassionate for the people that betray her,Sexually harass her or try to kill her! But people who have shown they can be trusted or show her they care about her or show her kindness. WW doesn't want anything to do with them or she attack them. The rebooted WW seems the more you mistreat her the more she like you!! The more kindness you show her the more she pull away, the more WW dislike you! Yeah!! where did WW get her value system from??

[Mel Dyer]

"Greatest run since George Perez, but too blamed slow" should have been a category.

Keep in mind that George Perez did these progressive things:

1) Ripped Circe's soul out of her body and blew her d'ell up, never to be seen or read again. (My favorite)
2) Left Wonder Woman with a solid, supporting cast.
3) Left Paradise Island in the rearview, where it bloody well belongs, ..but with the promise of frequent visits, by Diana.
4) Gave Wonder Woman a rogues gallery, with a mix of myth-inspired and non-mythical villains.

The Azzarello run accomplished Number Two and, for most of his run, Number Three, and the results were phenomenal. It was a great run that gave the WW comic a solidly interesting supporting cast and stage to play on.

[Ascended]

The writer who broke the mold here was Gail Simone, who built directly on the dog's breakfast she had been left by Heinberg and Picoult. Her run had its ups and downs, but it's the last good version, the one you reinstall after the botched update.

Ideally, the next writer should pick up at #600 as if nothing had happened. The sex pirate Amazon business should be established as another of the deceptive gods' lies in the first issue. "Daughter of Zeus" and "god of war" can be dealt with simply by silence. More than anything I want the tone, pace, and mood of the book to change.

Yeah, the irony is pretty thick there. Simone is one of the few to pick up what was done before, and it was one of the runs that really, really, really should have been forgotten. Letting Rucka's run be followed up by that....tripe....of Pocudi's (spelling) was criminal.

Simone's run likely could have been one of the best if not for the trappings that she had to deal with. I'd have loved to see her play in the sandbox Rucka built. But no, instead we have an idiot secret identity and a Wonder Woman who, despite a decade in Man's World, cannot pump her own gas.

And you want to return to that? Pass. Why would I want to return to mediocrity? Azzarello's run is over. He put some great concepts into play and left plenty of details to be filled in by future writers, if they so desire. Other aspects of Diana's mythos have been established in other titles and are just waiting to return to their home franchise.

Moving backwards is never a good idea. Let's forge ahead and leave nostalgia where it belongs, in the past.

[Blacksun]

Simone's run likely could have been one of the best if not for the trappings that she had to deal with. I'd have loved to see her play in the sandbox Rucka built. But no, instead we have an idiot secret identity and a Wonder Woman who, despite a decade in Man's World, cannot pump her own gas.

That wasn't Simone, it was Jodi Picoult.

*she played or tried to play with Rucka's sandbox. She wanted to use Rucka's Greek Gods and editorial said no.
The blame fall all on editorial that wrapped Rucka run before the time, choosed the wrong writer and concept to relaunch WW.

[Hawk80]

Moving backwards is never a good idea.

Moving forward in the wrong direction is worse.

[Pinsir]

It's irrelevant if you prefer not to get caught up in pesky details that create cause and effect, but according to your own criteria highlighted above both of these are plot holes.

The fact that fans reading had to come up with a theory as to why it happens merely highlights the fact that the hole is there in the first place.

This happens a lot in all great works though. Not everything needs an explanation. Also in general a plothole is something that the author overlooked, not intentionally ignored or placed.

[Outside_85]

Since you brought up reviews, the one thing that irked me about a lot of the positive reviews that this run got was that a good portion of those reviews came from reviewers who started off their first review with "I've never really read Wonder Woman before" and then later said this was the best Wonder Woman run ever. How can it possibly be "the best" if they have nothing to compare it to being that this is the ONLY Wonder Woman run they've read completely?

I would say they can say those words for the exact same reasons some here have railed against Azzarello's book. They took peeks into WW comics over the years and just never found what was inside interesting enough to keep reading it to the end of the run.

[TrekkieGal]

Well yes I do, but they have less to do with the quality of storytelling and more to do with not liking the direction and style. As I didn't read it (apart from what was shown online), I am not going to make any comments about ratio of panels in a page and how stories that were too stretched out or anything like that.

What I WILL say is that I chose not to pick it up because there was nothing that ever enticed me to.

I hate the following ideas.

WW as a horror book.
WW as the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta
Amazons who rape and kill sailors.
Amazons who seem to be one step above the stone age
Man hating Amazons
Weird looking Greek Gods with birthday cake heads
Diana as God of War.
Diana with a sword. Over and over again.
Diana's weird half-brothers and sisters. Lennox, Sirraca. Milan. Hated them all. Ugly designs. Who needs a tough guy smoking superhero?
Hate. Hate. Hate. The New Gods. Orion bores me to tears.
The idea that action in a comic book equates to violence. No real superheroics. Just lots of fights. Did she even have a magic lasso?
Zola (yawn). Had no interest in reading about her at all.
Diana in London. Why? No real reason.
Manazons. Really? Not interested.
3 years of basically no interaction with the outside world. Everything was centered around a very insular group.

Chang's art was not to my taste. Hated the character designs with the exception of the blonde Hippolyta and Hera. Enjoyed the fill in artist even less.

So why would I pick up the book? Because there was occasionally a character who resembled WW having something horrible done to her? No thanks. BUT...

I am not going to say that the storytelling itself was bad. It was just a story I didn't have any desire to read Any more than I would ever pick up a Batman or Nick Fury comic.

In the end, I do not think that Azzarello strengthened the character in the long run. Where as before she had a unique story and origin, she is now an amalgam of Hercules and Big Barda. The offspring of a god/trained by a god to be the ultimate warrior. Sorry, not interested.

WOW...he pretty much summed up why I gave up at Issue #6

[Silvanus]

But people who have shown they can be trusted or show her they care about her or show her kindness. WW doesn't want anything to do with them or she attack them.

I can see how this might be true of Johns' Wonder Woman, but do you mean Azzarello's too? If so, can you think of any examples?

[Silvanus]

Razor Tiara just mentioned having read every issue....

Well I read the whole thing and still felt the story lacking.

Sure, Razor Tiara, I realize that you did; that's what I said. I don't, for a moment, doubt that there are many people who wouldn't like it if they read it; I enjoyed it a lot, but it's certainly not everyone's cup of tea.I would have been mildly curious to know how many of the other people who answered "e" had, like you, read the whole run. But then, you might have been curious to know how many people who liked the run have read Wonder Woman before. Admittedly, no poll can tell us everything we might like to know. Kudos to Brett for taking the time to put up the poll in the first place.

I've got to say that one of my favorite things about reading the run has been arguing with smart, sincere people who didn't like it. Debating, or even just exchanging different views, can be fun--for me, anyway. There's no doubt that there are plenty of negative critical arguments that can and have been made about the run, and I respect the hell out of the people who have made them with intelligence and civility.

Of course, there are also other people. For my views on Azzarello's run, I've been called (directly or as part of the group of "Azzarello fans") delusional, a liar, a flatterer, not a real fan, and, in one case, a supporter of cultural vandalism comparable in kind to that committed by the Taliban. The Taliban!. I just take it with a grain of salt; it's the internet. But I did want you to know that these kinds of incivility happen on both sides.

[borntohula]

Azz deliberately had Hera talking about Hyppolyta. We have theories not because it makes no sense, but because it was left like that on purpose.
As for the first one, so you are saying that run not showing how Diana learned about god mode "makes no sense"? Really? Omitting irrelevant details is not same as plot holes or making no sense. But please, carry on.

It's the way Azzarello often writes parts of his stories. Show, don't tell. For better or worse, which depends on if the reader like it or not. Myself I'm pretty sure it was part of Zeus plan since Zeke's eyes went all starry. So I can't see the hole in that one.

[borntohula]

An A.

My favourite "guilty pleasure" (I'm not supposed to like super heroes!) for 3 years. Great combo of pulp fun, as big on heart as heart breaking drama. Deeper meaning with serious thrill power. Simply a joy.

And I'm really looking forward to what Peter Tomasi will be up to with the toys left laying around in Superman/Wonder Woman. I really hope it'll be wild! New gods wild!

Pros
-Diana. Daughter of Hippolyta and Zeus. God of War. Wonder Woman.
-Great character driven story line. Epic and big on surprises, brought to a full circle. And the ending. THAT ENDING !!!
-The twists. For example Amazons becoming the mothers of Zeus (who's his own bastard now). Clay-Hippolyta.
-The practical use of equality and the meta bits on feminism and lgbt.
-Showing that nothing's one sided. Strength can be weakness, weakness strength. Good bad, bad good. So on.
-Azzarello's writing. Chiang's art. Wilson's colours.

Cons
-Some of Tony Atkins art felt a little bit off at times.
-WW#15 contradicts WW#20 about the Lennox/Cassandra beef.
-Could'v been a bit less "mystery" at 1-2 times. For example Hermes promising Zeus about keeping the baby safe not being revealed till WW#24.
-Also perhaps a tiny bit more new gods.

[Nyssane]

On the other hand I'm confused now. Top 5 runs? Does WW even have top 5 that is made out of genuine good runs? People seem to mention Perez and Rucka a lot, but other than that nobody pops out. Surprisingly many fans seam to care very little about Marston's run.

Do people reference Bob Kane when they talk about outstanding Batman runs? Or Stan Lee when talking about stellar Avengers runs?

Marston's run is pretty well-loved on this board, actually.

[AmiMizuno]

Do people reference Bob Kane when they talk about outstanding Batman runs? Or Stan Lee when talking about stellar Avengers runs?

Marston's run is pretty well-loved on this board, actually.

When in favorite Wonder Woman writers he is voted top 5 writers