Azzarello - The Final Judgement.

[Awonder]

Everyone should get explict consent before they do anything sexual, and make sure they still have consent for every step that follows. And victim blaming--as in "she (or he} was asking for it by wearing sexy clothes and even flirting"--is reprehensible.

However, wouldn't you agree that the kissing and initially the touching appear to have been consensual in this case? From what I've (just now) read about it, roughness within the context of consensual sexual contact is a gray area in the law. When it's prosecuted, it's usually in cases where there was injury and/or the roughness continued after one party told the other party to stop. See, for example, http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/rough-p...erts-1.2074687 and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...albert0921.htm .

Perhaps the legal standards should be toughened up so that this would not be a gray area. I tend to think that they should. And i agree that absolutely no one should emulate the conduct Azz depicted in this WTF scene in issue 19. But, at present, I'd be curious to know if you can find many precedents in which a moment of squeezing during consensual contact, which did not inflict lasting harm and did not continue past one party's request to stop, led to conviction for a sexual offense. If not, I'm not sure it's accurate to say that "in real world terms, it IS sexual assault."

Neither of us are lawyers or jugdes, right? And I'm really not interested in playing who can google the most sexual assault cases. I'm arguing against your rationale here.

First, there does not need to be lasting harm for it to be sexual assault.

Second, this is not a case of misunderstanding. The kiss was consensual. The vice grip was not.

There's a very clear line because it's reasonable to assume that the vast majority of men do not want their balls in a painful grip and to be threatened with their removal. It's reasonable to assume that the vast majority of women know this. She did this on purpose. And she does continue, she holds on while watching the pain on his face.

Her intention is clear; and this is not a pass that missed, it's a lesson. She knows that her grip is not welcome, not consensual - that's her point in doing it.

[Awonder]

Kudos, sir. You always seem to explain it much better than I ever can.

Thank you, that's very kind of you.

[Silvanus]

Neither of us are lawyers or jugdes, right? And I'm really not interested in playing who can google the most sexual assault cases.

It's true that we're not, and it's understandable that you don't want to do that. I don't either, really. But if we're going to use a phrase like "in real world terms," it seems like we're talking about more than just an abstract definition, by itself; we talking about how a phrase like "sex offender" is applied in real life. And a first step in doing that could be to see if cases like the one in question (cases where there was consent to sexual contact, but it for a brief moment got rougher than one of the parties wanted, though without inflicting discernible physical harm ) result in sexual assault charges, or other sex offense charges, in real life. If they don't, then it's probably not true that the character would be labelled a sex offender, at least legally, "in real world terms."

But since we don't want to look up legal precedent, maybe we're talking less about the legal application of the term and more about a colloquial usage of the word. And if we're talking about colloquial usage, then we probably have to start asking whether this kind of person, based on this kind of reaction to repeated sexual harassment and innuendo, is really what the public thinks of when we hear the phrase "sex offender." If not, then maybe it's not the the clearest, most appropriate term to use to describe this fictional character and what she represents; maybe it's even a little unintentionally misleading. In other words, legal and dictionary definitions aside, the word, as commonly used and with all it's connotations, doesn't ring true for me as a description of Azz's character.

First, there does not need to be lasting harm for it to be sexual assault.

Of course. But, in practice, it seems that in cases where there was consent to some kind of sexual contact but the contact got excessively rough, some kind of discernible harm (which is better way of putting what I meant than my previous choice of the word "lasting") is one of the conditions that makes a prosecution and "sex offender" status more likely to be considered. That doesn't strike me as an ideal standard, but if we're talking about "real world terms," then I think the way courts sort through this gray area is probably relevant.

Anyway, as you say, we're not lawyers, so I personally think it's better to leave aside terms with as much legal baggage as the ones we're talking about; we could easily debate the rights and wrongs of this literary/artistic representation without using such heavily laden terminology.

That's probably all I have to say about this, unless you say something that I feel I have to respond to (so I'm hoping you won't be too interesting. . The conversation feels more serious than I would like, and though I wanted to explain why I don't like the usage of this term for Wonder Woman, I also want to be careful not to sound like I'm condoning non-consensual sexual contact. I don't, at all. And with that, I think I'm ready to go back to arguing about bullets and bracelets or something like that.

[numberthirty]

FYI...

Lorena Bobbit actually took parts off of a guy, and was not charged with what you guys think she should have been. Anybody got a guess why that is?

[devil leonx]

finished reading it in full, here is my basic rundown.
__WONDER WOMAN #0-35, Secret Origins #6 (New 52)____
THE GOOD
- cliff chiang and his similar tie in artist grew on me ALOT, i consider them to have put in strong enjoyable work here, would i have preferred someone more detailed and epic sure, but the art is not at all simple and bad as i thought it was when i originally saw random pages from it as it came out.
- love the unique versions of the greek gods and there interaction, every single one is different and offers there own points of interest, except Aphrodite, did absolutely nothing with her.
- surprised and strongly respect azzarello's willingness to make this story go Daaaarrrrk in places, especially when the non gritty fun artwork gives the exact opposite expected tone. the scene of cassandra feeding another character's brains to a stomach less cronos over and over again comes to mind.
- new gods are used well IMO, world building is good.
- first born is appropriately menacing villain, with a very understandable and sympathetic origin.
- cheetah's villain's month one shot issue was very good, artist victor ibanez (who is now on the storm ongoing) was a fantastic choice, his musculature for her nude but fierce form was perfect.
https://thanley.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/ww23-1b.jpg
- hera has a very enjoyable character arc thru the run.
THE BAD
- diana grabbing and threatening to rip off orion's balls just for him flirting with her, was a extreme over reaction, and came off out of character.
- azzarello... makes the amazons way TOO unlikable, realistic but unlikable, previously they where a advanced peaceful society, in the new they come off as the blood thirsty irrationally misandrist amazons where in real life, them boarding ships, seducing the crews every thirty years to make babies, would have been fine had they not butchered the innocent crews afterwards.
- yeah did nothing with Aphrodite.
- cassandra was interesting, but kinda went nowhere IMO
- zola was just a damsel in distress but her interaction with hera made her being around well worth it.

B
or going along my rating system
6 OF 6 = AMONG THE BEST OF ALL TIME
5 OF 6 = AMAZING / SUPURB
4 OF 6 = GREAT
3 OF 6 = GOOD
2 OF 6 = OK / MEH
1 OF 6 = BAD
0 OF 6 = HORRIBLE

id give it a 4 of 6, high 3 minimum

After seeing this post I kind of want to see more people do a Pros and cons list!

[chlj1]

Azzarello is example of today writers! All they want to write about is drunks, sex pots, murders, people with low character. That why he made WW people murders and slave trader, why he wanted her to have a dysfunctional family!! Highlighting fighting and betrayal!! Even wanting to put to rest WW image as a feminist symbol, by putting WW in a relationship where she treated with little to no respect, where she's nothing more than just a sex object!! This is what today writers call good story telling!! All the stories should be about watching the hero suffer as much as possible, never having any happiness, and having the heroine accept being demeaned and degraded. In this comic sexual harassment is flirting!! WW new name is legs!!

[InSavnity]

Azzarello is example of today writers! All they want to write about is drunks, sex pots, murders, people with low character. That why he made WW people murders and slave trader, why he wanted her to have a dysfunctional family!! Highlighting fighting and betrayal!! Even wanting to put to rest WW image as a feminist symbol, by putting WW in a relationship where she treated with little no respect, where she's nothing more than just a sex object!! This is what today writers call good story telling!! All the stories should be about watching the hero suffer as much as possible, never having any happiness, and having the heroine accept being demeaned and degraded. In this comic sexual harassment is flirting!! WW new name is legs!!

In all my years as an Internet forum user, I can honestly say I've never read so much slander.

[Dr. Poison]

In all my years as an Internet forum user, I can honestly say I've never read so much slander.

It looks like he stated a lot of facts from the run to me. Is there anything that chij1 stated about the run that didn't actually happen?

[chlj1]

In all my years as an Internet forum user, I can honestly say I've never read so much slander.

WW was rebooted to appeal to that Satanic crowd, that get off on cruelty, that love watching people being torture, watching people suffer, screaming, crying in pain. Wanting WW to be in abusive, violent relationships with family, friends, even love interests! They wanted a monster, not a hero, that why WW was made the God of war!! Turning WW into a Symbol for suffering, for destruction, for death! I don't think it's slander!! I think it's the truth!!

[Carabas]

It looks like he stated a lot of facts from the run to me. Is there anything that chij1 stated about the run that didn't actually happen?

WW was rebooted to appeal to that Satanic crowd

Well... Do we have to add anything to that?

Other than that he accuses the writer of active malice in how he chose to write his story? It's not that what he said didn't (sort of) happen in the stories, it's the intent he places on those story choices.

[Outside_85]

Well... Do we have to add anything to that?

Other than using a christian viewpoint to slander the audience percieved religious affiliation of an inherently pagan character? Says it all really.

[Dr. Poison]

Other than using a christian viewpoint to slander the audience percieved religious affiliation of an inherently pagan character? Says it all really.

Ok, I'll have to agree with you on the religious affiliation comment but I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that chilj1 is not from a country in which the majority speaks English so the English language is a 2nd language for him/her and what he/she really meant to say is that Azz's WW caters to folks who like darker-themed comics. I think we've all seen other comments on how it reads very similar to a Vertigo book. I'm not saying the run is all t_ts and gore but there were very few light, fun, or simple moments, especially ones that took up more than a few pages. Just about every issue had some sort of dark or immoral topic within it whether it was adultery, murder, sex-raids, beastiality, cannibalism, sexual harassment, or sexual assault. While some of these things are more common in every day life(such as adultery or sexual harassment), it's the sum of the whole of these acts which still doesn't sit well with some of us.

[Dr. Poison]

In all my years as an Internet forum user, I can honestly say I've never read so much slander.

Another thing that made me reply to this comment was the fact that it was stated that you never read so much slander in all of your years on the internet. I have to wonder just how long you've been on the internet not to notice all of the comments made about Rob Liefeld's artwork or Scott Lobdell's writing. Even on this particular forum alone there have been comments made toward Geoff Johns(one member stating he hopes that Geoff leaves the industry and never returns) or that Meredith Finch should be fired for writing Donna Troy the way that she has been. These comments weren't edited or deleted as far as I know and if comments like those aren't considered slander, I'm not sure what is.

[Outside_85]

Ok, I'll have to agree with you on the religious affiliation comment but I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that chilj1 is not from a country in which the majority speaks English so the English language is a 2nd language for him/her and what he/she really meant to say is that Azz's WW caters to folks who like darker-themed comics. I think we've all seen other comments on how it reads very similar to a Vertigo book. I'm not saying the run is all t_ts and gore but there were very few light, fun, or simple moments, especially ones that took up more than a few pages. Just about every issue had some sort of dark or immoral topic within it whether it was adultery, murder, sex-raids, beastiality, cannibalism, sexual harassment, or sexual assault. While some of these things are more common in every day life(such as adultery or sexual harassment), it's the sum of the whole of these acts which still doesn't sit well with some of us.

Which is not the same as calling people who like the book a bunch of devil-worshippers who get off on toture-porn, which this Wonder Woman was definitely not.

[Dr. Poison]

Which is not the same as calling people who like the book a bunch of devil-worshippers who get off on toture-porn, which this Wonder Woman was definitely not.

You're right, it's definitely not the same but I don't think it's appropriate to say that someone should lose their livelihood because one doesn't like their writing. Meredith has kids...... Maybe saying that she should move on to a different book that better suits her writing would have been a better choice. Anyways, I agree with you that not all Azz fans are devil worshipers.