Azzarello - The Final Judgement.

[Outside_85]

Because what was said about Mrs. Finch was very comparable to what was said about Azz earlier in this thread. Neither should have been posted here IMO. Anyways, I've made my point. You've made yours. I'm fine with moving on from this particular subject.

Yes, but why are you bringing this up when, the remarks that were made were against the people reading Azzarello's work?

You know, I never thought about Azz's run of WW being comparable to the Killing Joke but after reading your post, I have say that now I can see the similarities. DC fixed Barbara Gordon in recent years. Hopefully they'll do the same with Wonder Woman some day.

I have to admit, I don't think Steve has thought this quite through before he posted it, because it basically amounts to:
-DC hates Wonder Woman, so they ruined her.

Now that to me is one of the strangest and poorly founded reasons to dislike this run. DC is the second biggest and the oldest comic-book publisher in the US, and Wonder Woman is one of their biggest brands that's been with them nearly since they were founded. And she's tied up an ancient agreement with the Marstons that DC is still willing to honor just to keep control of her out of their hands. Now I don't know about you, but I don't think DC is a company that's holding onto WW out of spite.

As for how they are treating her? Oddly enough they've tried the more traditional path for the last 30 years and all the sales did was tank. You aren't a very good buisnessman if you don't see that and try to change, otherwise both we and DC would one day be without Wonder Woman.

As for Gordon, fixed is debatable, since what they really did was to turn her into Stephanie Brown when they realized no one wanted to see her be a female Bruce. As for what happened to her in Killing Joke... that was written as an AU tale that was then made canon, which again didn't really matter since Barbara wasn't active at that time (which should tell you about where she was going eventually; a bodybag). So she ended up in a wheelchair, got to prove how smart she was and was utterly unique in the world of DC... and now she's just one of three females that jumps around on Gotham's rooftops at night with ties to Wayne Manor.

[Dr. Poison]

Yes, but why are you bringing this up when, the remarks that were made were against the people reading Azzarello's work?



I have to admit, I don't think Steve has thought this quite through before he posted it, because it basically amounts to:
-DC hates Wonder Woman, so they ruined her.

Now that to me is one of the strangest and poorly founded reasons to dislike this run. DC is the second biggest and the oldest comic-book publisher in the US, and Wonder Woman is one of their biggest brands that's been with them nearly since they were founded. And she's tied up an ancient agreement with the Marstons that DC is still willing to honor just to keep control of her out of their hands. Now I don't know about you, but I don't think DC is a company that's holding onto WW out of spite.

As for how they are treating her? Oddly enough they've tried the more traditional path for the last 30 years and all the sales did was tank. You aren't a very good buisnessman if you don't see that and try to change, otherwise both we and DC would one day be without Wonder Woman.

As for Gordon, fixed is debatable, since what they really did was to turn her into Stephanie Brown when they realized no one wanted to see her be a female Bruce. As for what happened to her in Killing Joke... that was written as an AU tale that was then made canon, which again didn't really matter since Barbara wasn't active at that time (which should tell you about where she was going eventually; a bodybag). So she ended up in a wheelchair, got to prove how smart she was and was utterly unique in the world of DC... and now she's just one of three females that jumps around on Gotham's rooftops at night with ties to Wayne Manor.

I don't think DC hates Wonder Woman or holds on to her out of spite but I do think they'll try just about anything with her in hopes it will bring in huge sales. I mean, right before Azz's run, we had another extreme make-over in the form of the JMS/Hester run. As for sales being in the take on the book, that was the end of the JMS/Hester run and the end of the Simone run. Before that, Heinberg, Picoult(sp?) and Rucka's runs all sold at least average or much better.

[Outside_85]

I don't think DC hates Wonder Woman or holds on to her out of spite but I do think they'll try just about anything with her in hopes it will bring in huge sales. I mean, right before Azz's run, we had another extreme make-over in the form of the JMS/Hester run.

As for sales being in the take on the book, that was the end of the JMS/Hester run and the end of the Simone run. Before that, Heinberg, Picoult(sp?) and Rucka's runs all sold at least average or much better.

Well, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that they will try anything to make a character sell, this is a company and not a charity after all.

But the main thing DC has seen when they have been looking at WW's sales figures was that they were getting worse, and they were doing so faster than most of their other big names, which means aside from the normal market depression, there was something wrong with Wonder Woman.

[SteveGus]

I have to admit, I don't think Steve has thought this quite through before he posted it, because it basically amounts to:
-DC hates Wonder Woman, so they ruined her.

I suppose Hanlon's Razor applies. ("Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.") What we do know is that Azzarello is an awful, undisciplined writer who doesn't really know how to pace a story well or sustain interest in a monthly serial title. He shouldn't get a hundred issues or thirty-six issues to tell one story. He appeared to be out of his league trying to establish a superhero and her world for a shared universe. If he'd had more experience writing superhero titles, rather than noir revenge fantasy for the arty and pretentious imprint, he might have done a better job.

His bleak imagination was also utterly wrong for the character. At this point, it's all a lost opportunity as to whether a different and less dark and clichéd reboot would have been better. All I know is that by removing the utopian elements, Azzarello sucked out everything that was different and interesting about Wonder Woman and her world. He erased everything that made her unique among superheroes, both in lore and in tone.

The Daughter of Zeus character is a two-dimensional generic warrior woman who has no credible motives for being a superhero. She isn't an ambassador of anything. She has no real mission. Her motive for leaving "Paradise Island" apparently was bored curiosity and a desire to escape the barbarians who raised her. She just isn't a very interesting character any more, and isn't the character I was a fan of. The DoZ is not and will never be Wonder Woman.

[Dr. Poison]

Well, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that they will try anything to make a character sell, this is a company and not a charity after all.

But the main thing DC has seen when they have been looking at WW's sales figures was that they were getting worse, and they were doing so faster than most of their other big names, which means aside from the normal market depression, there was something wrong with Wonder Woman.

That makes DC sound desperate about Wonder Woman. I think it's safe to assume that the last half of Simone's run just didn't sit well with readers. It wasn't horrible but it was pretty boring. The Olympian storyline went on too long, the gorillas were still hanging around and had done nothing to capture my interest, and she turned Giganta into an ally for Diana. As for the JMS/Hester run, it's no wonder that turned into a pitfall when JMS jumped ship prematurely and his leaving lead to DC hiring Phil Hester who was rushed to turn in scripts to get the book out on time which also pushed Don Kramer(the regular artist at the time) into a situation where he couldn't keep up and lackluster fill-in artists were used to keep the book on schedule. I don't think it was Wonder Woman aka the character herself having anything wrong with her was to blame but the creative talent assigned to the book.

[InSavnity]

What we do know is that Azzarello is an awful, undisciplined writer who doesn't really know how to pace a story well or sustain interest in a monthly serial title.

The reason his WW run saw little to no editorial interference and was never forced into crossovers is that he never threw curve-balls to the editing team, that is, he plotted everything from the beginning, submitted his ideas before the run started and never deviated of an inch from what had been established.

[Carabas]

The reason his WW run saw little to no editorial interference and was never forced into crossovers is that he never threw curve-balls to the editing team, that is, he plotted everything from the beginning, submitted his ideas before the run started and never deviated of an inch from what had been established.

Clearly you have not been watching what happened when the New 52 premiered.
Because many writers would do exactly that, and have editors hound them to rewrite this or that book at the eleventh hour, change the line-up of teams, cancel story arcs after the first issues had already come out and the rest already written and art mostly completed.
Long-term plotting was practically impossible. You'd have characters getting engaged and then a year down the line editorial changing their minds about allowing the marriage...

It's a small miracle that Azzarello had had to change so little, with, I think, only the Wonder Woman/Superman romance killing one of his planned subplots.

[SiegePerilous02]

Seeing how Themyscira and the Amazons are a big part of the story, I don't see how that would have worked.

Not everything about them seemed too thought out. Killing the men they slept with seems to have been done for shock value and little else because it's never brought up again after that issue. Them reuniting with their sons and learning to let go of old prejudices would be a very good story, but the execution is very shallow. They accept their sons because Diana orders them to, and we get zero meaningful interactions between any individual characters. Why bring any of these things up (especially the sex raids) if nothing's going to be done with them anyways?

[Outside_85]

That makes DC sound desperate about Wonder Woman.

I think it's safe to assume that the last half of Simone's run just didn't sit well with readers. It wasn't horrible but it was pretty boring. The Olympian storyline went on too long, the gorillas were still hanging around and had done nothing to capture my interest, and she turned Giganta into an ally for Diana. As for the JMS/Hester run, it's no wonder that turned into a pitfall when JMS jumped ship prematurely and his leaving lead to DC hiring Phil Hester who was rushed to turn in scripts to get the book out on time which also pushed Don Kramer(the regular artist at the time) into a situation where he couldn't keep up and lackluster fill-in artists were used to keep the book on schedule. I don't think it was Wonder Woman aka the character herself having anything wrong with her was to blame but the creative talent assigned to the book.

Considering maintaining the rights to her is a running expense to them (which is requires them to continue to publish her comic), it's not that odd that they want her to succeed as comic as well as all the merchandise she is able to sell.

And in all of that is the problem. You've had all these writers, some good, some better, who have not been able to write her to a level where she doesn't appear to be failing in sales. I can understand that if one writer is a dud, but when it happens with several writers, one after the other, then perhaps the problem isn't them.

[InSavnity]

Clearly you have not been watching what happened when the New 52 premiered.
Because many writers would do exactly that, and have editors hound them to rewrite this or that book at the eleventh hour, change the line-up of teams, cancel story arcs after the first issues had already come out and the rest already written and art mostly completed.
Long-term plotting was practically impossible. You'd have characters getting engaged and then a year down the line editorial changing their minds about allowing the marriage...

It's a small miracle that Azzarello had had to change so little, with, I think, only the Wonder Woman/Superman romance killing one of his planned subplots.

Look, that's exactly what Azzarello said in one of his interviews in the period immediately following the end of his run. I didn't either add or removed anything from his words. I perfectly know that the first year (two years?) of the New52 were an absolute mess at the editorial level. At the same time, since we should always look at the dynamics of normal circumstances as a paradygm, I'm 99% sure that the WW corner of the DC Universe was the oasis of normalcy amid the sea of confusion.

[Carabas]

Look, that's exactly what Azzarello said in one of his interviews in the period immediately following the end of his run. I didn't either add or removed anything from his words. I perfectly know that the first year (two years?) of the New52 were an absolute mess at the editorial level. At the same time, since we should always look at the dynamics of normal circumstances as a paradygm, I'm 99% sure that the WW corner of the DC Universe was the oasis of normalcy amid the sea of confusion.

Is it this interview?
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56696
I can't find any other that talks about the editorial side of things.

[InSavnity]

Is it this interview?
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56696
I can't find any other that talks about the editorial side of things.

I'm not sure but I don't think that it's the one I'm referring to.

Perhaps it's just my lack of fimiliarity with American websites dedicated to the world of comic books, but I remember it wasn't a CBR exclusive. It may have been on Newsarama, instead.

[Dr. Poison]

Considering maintaining the rights to her is a running expense to them (which is requires them to continue to publish her comic), it's not that odd that they want her to succeed as comic as well as all the merchandise she is able to sell.

And in all of that is the problem. You've had all these writers, some good, some better, who have not been able to write her to a level where she doesn't appear to be failing in sales. I can understand that if one writer is a dud, but when it happens with several writers, one after the other, then perhaps the problem isn't them.

So then why did 3 continuous runs(Rucka, Heinberg, & Piccoult) sell well?

[numberthirty]

So then why did 3 continuous runs(Rucka, Heinberg, & Piccoult) sell well?

You can also say "So if they sold well, why aren't they still on the title?"

[Outside_85]

So then why did 3 continuous runs(Rucka, Heinberg, & Piccoult) sell well?

I'd say because Rucka actually had a good story, but someone at DC decided it wasn't what they wanted. (Hence why Simone wasn't allowed to use his designs for the gods).
Heinberg was... well wasn't that more of a mini-series more than anything? He wrote Who is Wonder Woman? as a mini and was out the door afterwards despite DC making it part of the main book. Plus it was illustrated by the Dodsons who are a huge draw as well.
And Piccoult; I suppose people jumped at those because she couldn't put a book out on time, so it looked like this would be the last WW book ever.