Azzarello - The Final Judgement.

[My Two Cents]

I voted A because I read a lot of comics and Wonder Woman has been the best one coming from D C or Marvel
over the past three years (imho).

Wonder Woman (with Batman and Superman) is my favorite character in comics, and yet since I have been reading her book (70's) I would never even place her title
in the top five at any time and over 90% not even in the top 10 compared to other comics from D C or Marvel being published at that time.

There was a few could of/ should of been done better or differently, but in the end the book was miles ahead of over 80% of the books from D C and Marvel and
always had just enough to stay on top (for me) during its run.

[Imraith Nimphais]

Solid A for me.

[Ascended]

As a reader of 20 years, could you elaborate on how you think the Amazons were unchanging. Perez had them forgive Heracles, Jiminez had them adopt outsider technology and science, Gail introduced the Circle and Rucka had them more involved in Earth politics. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to understand your opinion more.

Hmm, let me see.

Okay, each writer who came along did whatever they wanted with the Amazons, just like they did with the rest of Diana's mythos. So for one writer, the Amazons would be involved in politics, for another there would be a big arc about the Amazons going off to live in the world with no memory of what they were, until the storyline's climatic ending when they all ride rainbows home. For other writers the Amazons would leave this dimension completely, until the next writer brought them back with nary a reason in-story.

These are not "development arcs" so much as they're just what a particular writer wanted to do. There are very few connecting strands between the various actions the Amazons take, and what they are written as afterwards. The political intrigue of Rucka played a very small role in what Simone did, for example. There is no clear "arc" across the mythos, and just some smaller stories by a singular creative team with an all-too-rare follow up by others (Simone, for example is one of the few to pick up where her predecessors left off).

Overall, the Amazons remain the same basic concept; they're good people with some real gender issues and isolationist tendencies. As a people, while they might go from one thing to another according to the dictates of the writer, there was little growth overall. We saw no real, lasting changes made to their culture or society. Its the difference between shock value "the Amazons are all dead!" and lasting growth "the Amazons have to live with men now!"

Now in the case of Azzarello, the same largely applies. He introduces the Amazons as a people who are quite flawed and practice some pretty terrible customs. And by and large the Amazons are not the focus of his story however and we see no real growth from them as a people. He does however introduce certain aspects that could be brought into play and used to advance the Amazons' overall culture. The idea that Diana is forcing them to live with the males they abandoned? The idea that there will no longer be any sex raids? These are things that could (and should) carry into the next creative team, and the one after that, and the one after that. And as a people the Amazons should evolve and grow into something quite different from what we have seen over the last three years and end up as something closer to what we were used to beforehand. Call what we have now proto-Amazons; I want to see their natural and organic evolution into DC's usual Amazons.

Whether or not that happens is up to the writers who follow, but if they drop the ball and fail to continue what could be a fascinating exploration of cultural change, that's not Azzarello's fault.

It also should be mentioned that Azzarello gets a lot of wiggle room from me because this was a new continuity and I was actively looking for something different instead of the same old, bland and boring Wonder Woman title I had been reading since Rucka left. Had Azzarello tried these changes within the framework of the old history I would have been dead set against it.

[TrekkieGal]

E - I was in just for 6 issues. It read to me like the story Hercules after Issue#2. The violence was way over top, and ideaology differences with the Amazons, the dis association with the main character (who by issue 6 STILL didn't know her full name, nor seemed like I cared). The violence seemed to be the story, there was no substance or Character development other than making Wonder Woman more of protector than a goddess of love, and justice, so the chemistry was shot. Could it been more...debatable...it's like some altered universe version that I am really not interested in, in the end the violence and gore ended it for me. Decapitated Centaurs, blood covered Wonder Woman....this is not what I was hoping for by a long shot.

[Agent Z]

Hmm, let me see.

Okay, each writer who came along did whatever they wanted with the Amazons, just like they did with the rest of Diana's mythos. So for one writer, the Amazons would be involved in politics, for another there would be a big arc about the Amazons going off to live in the world with no memory of what they were, until the storyline's climatic ending when they all ride rainbows home. For other writers the Amazons would leave this dimension completely, until the next writer brought them back with nary a reason in-story.

These are not "development arcs" so much as they're just what a particular writer wanted to do. There are very few connecting strands between the various actions the Amazons take, and what they are written as afterwards. The political intrigue of Rucka played a very small role in what Simone did, for example. There is no clear "arc" across the mythos, and just some smaller stories by a singular creative team with an all-too-rare follow up by others (Simone, for example is one of the few to pick up where her predecessors left off).

Overall, the Amazons remain the same basic concept; they're good people with some real gender issues and isolationist tendencies. As a people, while they might go from one thing to another according to the dictates of the writer, there was little growth overall. We saw no real, lasting changes made to their culture or society. Its the difference between shock value "the Amazons are all dead!" and lasting growth "the Amazons have to live with men now!"

Now in the case of Azzarello, the same largely applies. He introduces the Amazons as a people who are quite flawed and practice some pretty terrible customs. And by and large the Amazons are not the focus of his story however and we see no real growth from them as a people. He does however introduce certain aspects that could be brought into play and used to advance the Amazons' overall culture. The idea that Diana is forcing them to live with the males they abandoned? The idea that there will no longer be any sex raids? These are things that could (and should) carry into the next creative team, and the one after that, and the one after that. And as a people the Amazons should evolve and grow into something quite different from what we have seen over the last three years and end up as something closer to what we were used to beforehand. Call what we have now proto-Amazons; I want to see their natural and organic evolution into DC's usual Amazons.

Whether or not that happens is up to the writers who follow, but if they drop the ball and fail to continue what could be a fascinating exploration of cultural change, that's not Azzarello's fault.

It also should be mentioned that Azzarello gets a lot of wiggle room from me because this was a new continuity and I was actively looking for something different instead of the same old, bland and boring Wonder Woman title I had been reading since Rucka left. Had Azzarello tried these changes within the framework of the old history I would have been dead set against it.

Couldn't the bolded be applied to writers whom did do arcs (and I feel there were arcs with the Amazons pre-52) with the Amazons. I agree that WW hasn't always had the best stories but I don't think the bad ones should be blamed on the writers who did do something good with the Amazons. Perez run, for instance, was all about cultural change, but that got thrown to the wayside by subsequent writers.

[Razor Tiara]

I'd say those people shouldn't be giving their opinion on the run, if they didn't read it.

I stopped buying after the Artemis vs. WW god mode dues ex machina, but I read every issue. I picked option E because they sucked.

[Silvanus]

I stopped buying after the Artemis vs. WW god mode dues ex machina, but I read every issue. I picked option E because they sucked.

I know that that you're not the only one who read every issue and disliked the run. I'd be shocked if everybody liked it; people have different tastes. But, your well-founded opinion aside, there are others here who have said they've read one third or one sixth of the run. That's certainly enough basis for the decision "I don't want to read it anymore," but is it enough for a "final judgement" about the run as a whole? That's for each reader to decide, and I don't begrudge anyone the right to an opinion, whatever basis that opinion may or may not have. At the same time, though, reading issues 1-6 of Azz's Wonder Woman and deciding that Diana is too brutal in this whole run reminds me of watching only Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope and deciding the the two Star Wars trilogies are no good because we never find out about Darth Vader's background. I can see why Javier wants a "didn't read it" option on the poll.

[Bound4olympus]

Not trying to pick a fight here, but what exactly do you have against the Perez run? Plus, it's possible they have problems with it other than 'it's not Perez'.

I never said I had a problem with Perez or made any assumptions about why they dont like the current run. I imagine the reasons are varied.

On a side note, i think the pirate raids and the baby trading make sense from an anthropological standpoint. I point to the chinese and thier preference of male children. I dont think its admirable but i do find it an interesting aspect of the new amazons. I also dont think its fair to judge Hippolyta for the affair. Life happens, people make mistakes and sometimes those mistakes lead to wonderful things. Pun intended.

The one issue i have, the one thing that pisses me off to no end, is the constant reference to turning Diana into a "bastard". I find that term extremely offensive, archaic and condecending. As if not having married parents makes you less of a person, unable to be respected or valuable. I hate seeing it.

[SteveGus]

I know that that you're not the only one who read every issue and disliked the run. I'd be shocked if everybody liked it; people have different tastes. But, your well-founded opinion aside, there are others here who have said they've read one third or one sixth of the run. That's certainly enough basis for the decision "I don't want to read it anymore," but is it enough for a "final judgement" about the run as a whole? That's for each reader to decide, and I don't begrudge anyone the right to an opinion, whatever basis that opinion may or may not have.

When a reader decides that the writer's treatment of the character's lore and background is so grossly offensive that they choose not to read it any more, I'd say they have sufficient reason to say they despise the run.

It isn't that Azzarello's treatment of the character's background prevented me from enjoying the rest of the run. Azzarello's treatment of Wonder Woman and her world prevents me from enjoying anything in the DC universe; not that I'm missing a great deal there either.

[Dr. Poison]

When a reader decides that the writer's treatment of the character's lore and background is so grossly offensive that they choose not to read it any more, I'd say they have sufficient reason to say they despise the run.

This is how I feel as well although after reading issues 1 - 5 and then 14, I did come back to read issue #35 and the Secret Origins tale in hopes of getting a firm understanding of the beginning and end of Diana under Azz's pen. In my 30+ years of reading comes, I've never been this passionate about my dislike for a writer's take of a character. After sampling Azz's run twice, it disgusted me to the point where I lost a lot of interest in one of my favorite characters and from reading online reviews and commentary on social media sites, I was able to discern that he did not change direction from what made me dislike his run in the first place so that's why I felt very comfortable going with option "E".

[Blacksun]

Cons:
[*]The New Gods. Seriously, what was Azzarello doing with them? I feel like he wanted to write a New Gods book but used Wonder Woman to do so. I'm a fan of the New Gods, and Orion, but I wasn't happy with Orion's portrayal for the most part.
[/LIST]

he did so little with New Gods, only one issue on new genesis only focusing on highfather and Orion; in his final issues Orion was more background. I really don't see how Azz was putting too much new gods into his run

Gave the run an "A" but B also applies. It wasn't a perfect run and there were some things I didnt care for, but that's to be expected.

I've been reading Wonder Woman for twenty years and this is the best the character has been treated since Rucka, and now that its over I'd argue that this run was better than his in many respects.

Some of the larger scale changes Azzarello made, such as the Zeus-is-her-father thing, the less-than-admirable Amazons and the God of War deal, obviously turned some fans off. Me, I had some issues there too, but ultimately Ive come to the conclusion that these changes were improvements to the mythos. Diana used to be a tool the gods would use, often with little regard for her. Now that shes one of them she's directly involved in their actions and that gives her more autonomy and influence in her own plots. The Amazons have obviously been set-up to take a turn for the better under Diana's leadership, and that can be a strong arc for them that could provide tons and tons of great story potential. Much better, in the end, than the static, unchanging culture they used to be. And the god of War thing....well, I'd have preferred god of Truth, but a god is a god, and seeing Diana wrestle with her new role should be fun. It also may show the other gods, who so often decry that they "cannot be anything other than what they are, and have no choice" the hypocrisy of their statements, as Diana refuses to bend under the same stresses that eventually broke Ares.

These changes may go against old continuity and Diana's original mythos, but they all provide great options for story lines that could last for years. That's an improvement over the old versions that did not lend themselves very well to stories being told in the "now".

well it all depends on the creativity of the writers, lack of creativity doesn't justify changes;

I really like the Azz run, but I could do without amazons doing violent raids. I read sensation comics #12 and that comic made me miss so much the old amazons and clay origin.

[Outside_85]

When a reader decides that the writer's treatment of the character's lore and background is so grossly offensive that they choose not to read it any more, I'd say they have sufficient reason to say they despise the run.

Not really, because as stories go, there are things that go up and down.
Like say, Lemire's Green Arrow, if you just read his first issue or two, where he basically nukes everything Krul and Nocenti had added, gets Ollie beaten half to death and throws him into a desert and leave after that. You really aren't qualified to call the rest of the story rubbish if it turns up later on, which it did.
Same with Rotworld, you spent several issues of character building for both Swampy and Animal Man and everything is going fine, you can't say the whole story is superb unless you accept to also read the rest of the story.

It's fine you choose not to read any more of a story because it doesnt appeal to you any longer, but claiming everything is bad when the story wraps up much much later is kinda silly. Imagine if a teacher or professor graded your assignments by only reading the first couple of pages of your work.

[Nyssane]

he did so little with New Gods, only one issue on new genesis only focusing on highfather and Orion; in his final issues Orion was more background. I really don't see how Azz was putting too much new gods into his run

Uh, Orion was in quite a few issues if I remember correctly. If he was only going to focus on them for one issue, why even bother? It's not a New Gods series. It never went back to Highfather or New Genesis... it feels like filler.

[Dr. Poison]

Not really, because as stories go, there are things that go up and down.
Like say, Lemire's Green Arrow, if you just read his first issue or two, where he basically nukes everything Krul and Nocenti had added, gets Ollie beaten half to death and throws him into a desert and leave after that. You really aren't qualified to call the rest of the story rubbish if it turns up later on, which it did.
Same with Rotworld, you spent several issues of character building for both Swampy and Animal Man and everything is going fine, you can't say the whole story is superb unless you accept to also read the rest of the story.

It's fine you choose not to read any more of a story because it doesnt appeal to you any longer, but claiming everything is bad when the story wraps up much much later is kinda silly. Imagine if a teacher or professor graded your assignments by only reading the first couple of pages of your work.

Grading quality and effort is (or at least should be) different than coming to an opinion about content.

[brettc1]

I'd say those people shouldn't be giving their opinion on the run, if they didn't read it.

It's possible some folks read it in store, or at the library in trade.

Interesting result so far - twice as many A's as E's, but only about 20% of the votes coming in when the run started three years ago.