Azzarello - The Final Judgement.

[AmiMizuno]

here is something interesting. Alecka might be from a already pervious amazon

[Silvanus]

I agree with Brett on this. Limiting the voting to only those who kept buying the run is going to skew the results. From DC's point of view, Azzarello's (and co) primary job is not a good story, but to sell comics.

I wouldn't limit the voting, per se; you could always have an option like "I didn't read most of the run, because early issues, reviews, internet posts etc. convinced me I wouldn't like it." That way their votes would still be counted but would be distinct from those of the people who read the whole thing and didn't like it. We'd have a clearer idea of how many people chose not to read it and how many people read it but didn't like it, instead of blurring those two categories together.

But Brett, sorry for the second guessing; really, the poll's fine, and I'm just interested in the question of what it means to make a "final judgement" of a work and whether you need to have read it first.

[Ascended]

Couldn't the bolded be applied to writers whom did do arcs (and I feel there were arcs with the Amazons pre-52) with the Amazons. I agree that WW hasn't always had the best stories but I don't think the bad ones should be blamed on the writers who did do something good with the Amazons. Perez run, for instance, was all about cultural change, but that got thrown to the wayside by subsequent writers.

Im not saying that the lack of a cohesive direction and mythology in Diana's book is the fault of any one creative team. Im saying that its the fault of most of the creative teams, who always start from scratch instead of building on what came before. Perez had a good arc for the Amazons, and Azzarello laid the groundwork for the same kind of long-form evolution. And both of them were working with a blank slate continuity. The fact that no one followed up on what Perez did, and instead went in their own direction isnt Perez's fault but it still weakens the Wonder Woman mythos. If the Finch duo and those who follow decide to do the same, its not on Azzarello but Diana is the one who will suffer. And taken individually, I enjoyed many of the arcs the Amazons had, Rucka's run especially. But those arcs were not a natural evolution, they were a flash in the pan concept that never lasted beyond the writer. Shock value and not real lasting growth.

well it all depends on the creativity of the writers, lack of creativity doesn't justify changes;

Not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the changes made were due to a lack of creativity? Because if so, I would disagree wholeheartedly. You can say that Azzarello made changes that were short sighted or bad for the franchise, poorly executed or what have you (opinions vary of course) but I dont think a lack of creativity was ever a problem. No, I suspect that either Azzarello or DC decided that certain aspects of Diana's history were weighing her down and not carrying their weight from a narrative standpoint, and changes needed to be made. And generally, I have to agree. Making Diana a member of the divine family gives her more agency in her own stories rather than being a pawn. Being Zeus' daughter offers story potential now and in the future that the clay origin does not (there's not much you can do with that beyond say it happened really). Making the Amazons suck like he did offers a chance to watch them grow and be better, having learned from Diana's example, which makes her even more of a force and a hero in her stories. Whether these changes are good ideas is up to the history books but I think they all offer more potential for tales to be told.

[SteveGus]

The fact that no one followed up on what Perez did, and instead went in their own direction isnt Perez's fault but it still weakens the Wonder Woman mythos. If the Finch duo and those who follow decide to do the same, its not on Azzarello but Diana is the one who will suffer.

The writer who broke the mold here was Gail Simone, who built directly on the dog's breakfast she had been left by Heinberg and Picoult. Her run had its ups and downs, but it's the last good version, the one you reinstall after the botched update.

Ideally, the next writer should pick up at #600 as if nothing had happened. The sex pirate Amazon business should be established as another of the deceptive gods' lies in the first issue. "Daughter of Zeus" and "god of war" can be dealt with simply by silence. More than anything I want the tone, pace, and mood of the book to change.

[brettc1]

I wouldn't limit the voting, per se; you could always have an option like "I didn't read most of the run, because early issues, reviews, internet posts etc. convinced me I wouldn't like it." That way their votes would still be counted but would be distinct from those of the people who read the whole thing and didn't like it. We'd have a clearer idea of how many people chose not to read it and how many people read it but didn't like it, instead of blurring those two categories together.

But Brett, sorry for the second guessing; really, the poll's fine, and I'm just interested in the question of what it means to make a "final judgement" of a work and whether you need to have read it first.

Seriously, who pays $4 over and over again, 35 times, for something they don't enjoy? Most folks wouldn't. By this logic you can only get an accurate poll if you lock 100 people in a room and make them read every issue for free. LOL.

The run is over and nobody is stopping anyone from getting the back issues. If you were reading a whole self contained book and didn't finish it because you were weren't enjoying it, that's an opinion.

[Silvanus]

Seriously, who pays $4 over and over again, 35 times, for something they don't enjoy? Most folks wouldn't. By this logic you can only get an accurate poll if you lock 100 people in a room and make them read every issue for free. LOL.

I wouldn't. But buying it is one thing and reading it is another. (And it is possible to legally borrow and read a comic without buying.) Razor Tiara just mentioned having read every issues even when no longer buying it. So, did others do that, or if there were an option F, would there be 11 F's and Razor Tiara's E? I don't know, but I'm mildly curious.

I wouldn't want to exclude anyone's opinion; i just think it's interesting to know how many people disliked it on the basis of having read it and how many people decided not to read it. I don't know what the advantage is of blurring those two categories together. It's no big deal, though.

If you were reading a whole self contained book and didn't finish it because you were weren't enjoying it, that's an opinion.

Of course; it's a totally valid option. It's just a different option from reading the whole thing and evaluating it negatively.

[teardropmina]

The writer who broke the mold here was Gail Simone, who built directly on the dog's breakfast she had been left by Heinberg and Picoult. Her run had its ups and downs, but it's the last good version, the one you reinstall after the botched update.

Ideally, the next writer should pick up at #600 as if nothing had happened. The sex pirate Amazon business should be established as another of the deceptive gods' lies in the first issue. "Daughter of Zeus" and "god of war" can be dealt with simply by silence. More than anything I want the tone, pace, and mood of the book to change.

like the idea, and Gail's run is seriously under appreciated.

as it's "ideally," not likely to happen~~:

[SteveGus]

I wouldn't want to exclude anyone's opinion; i just think it's interesting to know how many people disliked it on the basis of having read it and how many people decided not to read it. I don't know what the advantage is of blurring those two categories together. It's no big deal, though.

I glimpsed through, and "read" most of the issues that came out until at some point I just lost interest and didn't bother. Somewhere in the late teens or early twenties, I reckon. It wasn't as if Azzarello was filling the pages with text, either. And I followed the spoilers here so I had at least some idea of what was happening for the rest.

I just can't imagine paying monthly for so slight an installment of story as Azzarello was spooning out, so that nothing was covered from start to finish even in a single issue of the trade collections. That kind of writing is inappropriate for a serial title, in my opinion.

[numberthirty]

That kind of writing is inappropriate for a serial title, in my opinion.

That's odd Brian is one of the only writers that I think actually excels at serialized writing as a format.

[Pinsir]

But he didn't give us the whole story he shouldn't present something and not answer it bad storytelling two he could have old this story in 1 years so he shouldn't be giving a A when so many plot holes ruin so much.

plotholes? In my experience the word does not have much meaning anymore.

[brettc1]

I wouldn't want to exclude anyone's opinion; i just think it's interesting to know how many people disliked it on the basis of having read it and how many people decided not to read it. I don't know what the advantage is of blurring those two categories together. It's no big deal, though.

You are correct - because either way it means the people didn't like the story.

Now some folks might say "If you didn't read the whole thing, you don't have a valid opinion so that cannot actually count." To me that seems silly, especially when the biggest vote you can cast with a company like DC is with your wallet. If you are halfway through a meal at a restaurant and you are not enjoying it, you don't have to finish the whole plate to have an opinion. I got food poisoning from a place once and in 17 years I have never gone back there. Other people eat there all the time, but my vote is locked in.

E in this case means either you hated it but were prepared to buy every issue because you REALLY like Wonder Woman, or you tried it and were not motivated to spend more money on it. All opinions are subjective. There might be folks who have never read a WW comic before this one and then suddenly they read Perez and think "Wow, that is awesome - I marked Azzarello too high!" Or there might be people who give this a C and then read other runs and think its a B, or an A. Everyone brings there own perceptions to the table.

I've known for a long time that I am the only person who is completely fair and objective, but that's the burden I bear.

[Outside_85]

Grading quality and effort is (or at least should be) different than coming to an opinion about content.

Well, thats the difference of what kind of mentality the viewer has when going in and if he or she is capable of looking past their own personal bias'.

[brettc1]

Well, thats the difference of what kind of mentality the viewer has when going in and if he or she is capable of looking past their own personal bias'.

Everyone goes in with some kind of personal bias and it affects you whether you are aware of it or not. The proof is that some folks voted A and others voted C. Which one is wrong?

[Razor Tiara]

I wouldn't. But buying it is one thing and reading it is another. (And it is possible to legally borrow and read a comic without buying.) Razor Tiara just mentioned having read every issues even when no longer buying it. So, did others do that, or if there were an option F, would there be 11 F's and Razor Tiara's E? I don't know, but I'm mildly curious.

I wouldn't want to exclude anyone's opinion; i just think it's interesting to know how many people disliked it on the basis of having read it and how many people decided not to read it. I don't know what the advantage is of blurring those two categories together. It's no big deal, though.



Of course; it's a totally valid option. It's just a different option from reading the whole thing and evaluating it negatively.

Well I read the whole thing and still felt the story lacking. Even if I weren't a WW purist, Azzarello's run still would have been inadequate due to it's plot holes, cynicism, sexism, subjectivity, lack of action, answers and inordinately slow pacing

[Pinsir]

Well I read the whole thing and still felt the story lacking. Even if I weren't a WW purist, Azzarello's run still would have been inadequate due to it's plot holes, cynicism, sexism, subjectivity, lack of action, answers and inordinately slow pacing

plotholes? sexism? subjectivity?