Azzarello - The Final Judgement.

[Javier Velasco]

That might be true sometimes, Javier. But considering you are long time reader of Wonder Woman and a moderator on her comic message board, I think there must be some pretty identifiable and quantifiable reasons for you having "no opinion" about three years of her book

Well yes I do, but they have less to do with the quality of storytelling and more to do with not liking the direction and style. As I didn't read it (apart from what was shown online), I am not going to make any comments about ratio of panels in a page and how stories that were too stretched out or anything like that.

What I WILL say is that I chose not to pick it up because there was nothing that ever enticed me to.

I hate the following ideas.

WW as a horror book.
WW as the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta
Amazons who rape and kill sailors.
Amazons who seem to be one step above the stone age
Man hating Amazons
Weird looking Greek Gods with birthday cake heads
Diana as God of War.
Diana with a sword. Over and over again.
Diana's weird half-brothers and sisters. Lennox, Sirraca. Milan. Hated them all. Ugly designs. Who needs a tough guy smoking superhero?
Hate. Hate. Hate. The New Gods. Orion bores me to tears.
The idea that action in a comic book equates to violence. No real superheroics. Just lots of fights. Did she even have a magic lasso?
Zola (yawn). Had no interest in reading about her at all.
Diana in London. Why? No real reason.
Manazons. Really? Not interested.
3 years of basically no interaction with the outside world. Everything was centered around a very insular group.

Chang's art was not to my taste. Hated the character designs with the exception of the blonde Hippolyta and Hera. Enjoyed the fill in artist even less.

So why would I pick up the book? Because there was occasionally a character who resembled WW having something horrible done to her? No thanks. BUT...

I am not going to say that the storytelling itself was bad. It was just a story I didn't have any desire to read Any more than I would ever pick up a Batman or Nick Fury comic.

In the end, I do not think that Azzarello strengthened the character in the long run. Where as before she had a unique story and origin, she is now an amalgam of Hercules and Big Barda. The offspring of a god/trained by a god to be the ultimate warrior. Sorry, not interested.

[HsssH]

I voted B because I don't think that I qualify as long time reader since I dropped many of the previous WW runs rather fast. Basically was always interested in the character but this run was first in many years that I actually enjoyed.

On the other hand I'm confused now. Top 5 runs? Does WW even have top 5 that is made out of genuine good runs? People seem to mention Perez and Rucka a lot, but other than that nobody pops out. Surprisingly many fans seam to care very little about Marston's run.

Where as before she had a unique story and origin, she is now an amalgam of Hercules and Big Barda.

I don't really know/remember much about Big Barda but how she is similar to WW asides of being strong woman?

[brettc1]

Well yes I do, but they have less to do with the quality of storytelling and more to do with not liking the direction and style. As I didn't read it (apart from what was shown online), I am not going to make any comments about ratio of panels in a page and how stories that were too stretched out or anything like that.

What I WILL say is that I chose not to pick it up because there was nothing that ever enticed me to.

I hate the following ideas.

WW as a horror book.
WW as the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta
Amazons who rape and kill sailors.
Amazons who seem to be one step above the stone age
Man hating Amazons
Weird looking Greek Gods with birthday cake heads
Diana as God of War.
Diana with a sword. Over and over again.
Diana's weird half-brothers and sisters. Lennox, Sirraca. Milan. Hated them all. Ugly designs. Who needs a tough guy smoking superhero?
Hate. Hate. Hate. The New Gods. Orion bores me to tears.
The idea that action in a comic book equates to violence. No real superheroics. Just lots of fights. Did she even have a magic lasso?
Zola (yawn). Had no interest in reading about her at all.
Diana in London. Why? No real reason.
Manazons. Really? Not interested.
3 years of basically no interaction with the outside world. Everything was centered around a very insular group.

Chang's art was not to my taste. Hated the character designs with the exception of the blonde Hippolyta and Hera. Enjoyed the fill in artist even less.

So why would I pick up the book? Because there was occasionally a character who resembled WW having something horrible done to her? No thanks. BUT...

I am not going to say that the storytelling itself was bad. It was just a story I didn't have any desire to read Any more than I would ever pick up a Batman or Nick Fury comic.

In the end, I do not think that Azzarello strengthened the character in the long run. Where as before she had a unique story and origin, she is now an amalgam of Hercules and Big Barda. The offspring of a god/trained by a god to be the ultimate warrior. Sorry, not interested.

Okay.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that this is not an A, B, or C

[brettc1]

plotholes?

Well, we never find out how Diana learns about god mode, or that taking her bracers off somehow triggers it.

Or why Hera is not able to turn Hippolyta back to human.

[HsssH]

Those are not plotholes. Plotholes generally refer to things that make no sense or go against what happened previously without any explanation.

Azz not showing when and how Diana learned about God Mode doesn't contradict anything. Thats just a detail that you, and many others, would have loved to see but ultimately was irrelevant for the bigger story.
Same for Hera and Hippolyta. Hera states herself that she doesn't understand why she is unable to turn her back into human. Thats why we have theory going around that Hippolyta might be either made out of the clay herself or that is a punishment for her lie about Diana's origin. Either way it doesn't create any inconsistencies or go against anything that was stated before.

[enish]

I voted "B" because first I disliked the tone of the run, with issue n1. Then I kept on reading, just to give it a try and a chance to seduce me. It worked, the universe in which she evolved finally grew on me.
I could have voted "A" if not for the minor things that bugged me, I'm the kind of guy who needs explanation for everything. I don't like being left guessing who's and whats'. But I can understand that it's a narrative style too, and it leaves the reader to his imaginations.
But things like her powers could have been a little bit more explained. God mode for instance, how or when did Hippolyta need to give Diana her bracers to surpress her god form?
Why did Ares have a Mother Box in his war room? Does he have any ties with New Genesis? Has he ever been there? ETC...

I could easily picture this story (the three year run) into a movie, or a trilogy. Okay, I know about the rumor of the first WW movie to be set in the 20's, but, this could easily be translated to the silver screen!

[BlackFeath]

Those are not plotholes. Plotholes generally refer to things that make no sense or go against what happened previously without any explanation.

Azz not showing when and how Diana learned about God Mode doesn't contradict anything. Thats just a detail that you, and many others, would have loved to see but ultimately was irrelevant for the bigger story.
Same for Hera and Hippolyta. Hera states herself that she doesn't understand why she is unable to turn her back into human. Thats why we have theory going around that Hippolyta might be either made out of the clay herself or that is a punishment for her lie about Diana's origin. Either way it doesn't create any inconsistencies or go against anything that was stated before.

Yeah, I agree. I would have liked to see these details too, but their absence doesn't bother me very much, I like to imagine myself what could have happened. That said, I still would like future writers to fill those details. For example I wouldn't mind at all a story about when Diana learned about god mode.

I imagine her training with the amazons and then learning about it, maybe losing her control. That could have ended with the other girls starting to call her Clay after having seen how she was different, or maybe she may have lost control after they called her that.

Then I imagine some crazy adventure with Diana as a child that escapes and faces some challenges in some remote and dangerous zone of Paradise Island, and her mother finally reaching her, saying that she is special and that she loves her. Then maybe Diana could still be shown as being scared of hurting her sisters, and so I could see Hippolyta giving her the bracelets.

I'd really like to see this. Actually, I think that I would have really liked a story like this by Azzarello with the same style of issue #0. I think it could be a good story for an annual, for example, even from other writers and with some other stories in it xD

[Outside_85]

Everyone goes in with some kind of personal bias and it affects you whether you are aware of it or not. The proof is that some folks voted A and others voted C. Which one is wrong?

That is ofc true, but a good reviewer/critic are normally able to look past their own personal-based likes and dislikes. That said, I have to remind myself that no one here (myself included) are one of these good critics, we are fans, and critics and fans don't always walk in step.

[brettc1]

Those are not plotholes. Plotholes generally refer to things that make no sense or go against what happened previously without any explanation.

Azz not showing when and how Diana learned about God Mode doesn't contradict anything. Thats just a detail that you, and many others, would have loved to see but ultimately was irrelevant for the bigger story.
Same for Hera and Hippolyta. Hera states herself that she doesn't understand why she is unable to turn her back into human. Thats why we have theory going around that Hippolyta might be either made out of the clay herself or that is a punishment for her lie about Diana's origin. Either way it doesn't create any inconsistencies or go against anything that was stated before.

It's irrelevant if you prefer not to get caught up in pesky details that create cause and effect, but according to your own criteria highlighted above both of these are plot holes.

The fact that fans reading had to come up with a theory as to why it happens merely highlights the fact that the hole is there in the first place.

[teardropmina]

It's irrelevant if you prefer not to get caught up in pesky details that create cause and effect, but according to your own criteria highlighted above both of these are plot holes.

The fact that fans reading had to come up with a theory as to why it happens merely highlights the fact that the hole is there in the first place.

indeed, it's a fact that there are many unresolved and untold details. Whether one cares about those details is only reader preference.
don't care - headcanoning - wanting the details to be told/unfold are three modes of reading.

[Dr. Poison]

That is ofc true, but a good reviewer/critic are normally able to look past their own personal-based likes and dislikes. That said, I have to remind myself that no one here (myself included) are one of these good critics, we are fans, and critics and fans don't always walk in step.

Since you brought up reviews, the one thing that irked me about a lot of the positive reviews that this run got was that a good portion of those reviews came from reviewers who started off their first review with "I've never really read Wonder Woman before" and then later said this was the best Wonder Woman run ever. How can it possibly be "the best" if they have nothing to compare it to being that this is the ONLY Wonder Woman run they've read completely? Then I saw other reviews where a reviewer said "nothing wrong with this issue" under their "The Bad" section of their review and another reviewer tried convincing people to buy the book by saying things like "there's nothing new here and I can't tell you why you should buy this book but just buy it." Reviews like those weren't exactly compelling to me in the least bit.

[wagthedog]

Since you brought up reviews, the one thing that irked me about a lot of the positive reviews that this run got was that a good portion of those reviews came from reviewers who started off their first review with "I've never really read Wonder Woman before" and then later said this was the best Wonder Woman run ever. How can it possibly be "the best" if they have nothing to compare it to being that this is the ONLY Wonder Woman run they've read completely? Then I saw other reviews where a reviewer said "nothing wrong with this issue" under their "The Bad" section of their review and another reviewer tried convincing people to buy the book by saying things like "there's nothing new here and I can't tell you why you should buy this book but just buy it." Reviews like those weren't exactly compelling to me in the least bit.

Besides, who are the "good and impartial" reviewers supposed to be? And do we believe that everything they say is gospel?

I liked the Siskel & Ebert show back in the day, but they did not determine for me the outcome of whether I was going to see a movie or not. They may have added to my indecision over spending money on a movie with a bad review. But, with all critics, I take them with a grain of salt, and there is no impartial critic out there.

[Dr. Poison]

Besides, who are the "good and impartial" reviewers supposed to be? And do we believe that everything they say is gospel?

I liked the Siskel & Ebert show back in the day, but they did not determine for me the outcome of whether I was going to see a movie or not. They may have added to my indecision over spending money on a movie with a bad review. But, with all critics, I take them with a grain of salt, and there is no impartial critic out there.

Exactly. I've never had a comic review that was compelling enough that it made me make a decision whether to buy or not buy a book especially when you keep in mind that most of these review site rely on maintaining a good relationship with DC and other comic companies so they are most likely going to limit the amount of negative things they are going to say about any given book out of fear of DC giving exclusive previews, interviews, etc. to another site if they rock the boat too much.

[SteveGus]

Those are not plotholes. Plotholes generally refer to things that make no sense or go against what happened previously without any explanation.

Diana herself is the largest plot hole. Azzarello's fans carry on about how Diana is still compassionate. Where the hell did she get her value system from? From the murderous Amazons? The cruel and lying gods?

[LoneNecromancer]

Diana herself is the largest plot hole. Azzarello's fans carry on about how Diana is still compassionate. Where the hell did she get her value system from? From the murderous Amazons? The cruel and lying gods?

How her value system comes about is perfectly shown within WW #0.