What was the worst year of the Spider-Man Comics?

[Webhead]

I'd argue that Kaine being healed did not bestow upon him "the exact Peter Parker values and perceptions."

He was genetically the same, and he obviously had mental tampering with the intent of making him a replica of Peter, so there are obviously going to be similarities. However, he was always "flawed" even after his genetic code wasn't, as (I think it's safe to assume) he didn't have the exact memories/life of Peter to remember and build personality from.

I think the tone of the book and the personality of Kaine just wasn't what I was expecting / what I would've liked. Too light even with the dark parts.

But yeah - not the right thread I suppose.

-Pav, who is glad others liked the book because the character is wonderful...

OK Last one about this! I promise! Him being healed made him a perfect clone, which obviously took away the madness from clone degeneration, and in my mind, arguably induced a progressive personality change. Note that he only really becomes quippy and heroic as the book goes on and even then it's not the same style of humor of Spider-Man. My way of seeing it and based on Yost's interviews is that, when the degeneration cure kicked in, he was rushed by a semblance of Peter's conscience, buried behind the madness; what would happen if Peter Parker woke up one day and realized he had been a murderous ##%$? Kaine's frequent breakdowns amount to that. And then there's the (anti)hero's journey, etc...

[Keeper of the Crows]

At the risk of perpetuating a potential thread drift…

I think the conversation you’re both having about Kaine is a fascinating one. I enjoyed Yost’s take on the character (more so in the beginning), especially since it meant the return of an awesome character who had been swept under the rug for many years following the perceived-toxicity of the clone saga.

But although Ben and Kaine remain two very different characters, I think Kaine has essentially taken over Ben’s role as the “clone of Spider-Man trying to do the right thing.” If Ben Reilly were to ever return, I think Kaine would take on a more villainous (or at least less heroic) disposition. As someone who really liked Ben Reilly and also enjoyed Kaine as a twisted version of Peter with a shred of conscience, I wouldn’t be adverse to a story along those lines happening.

Sadly, I don’t see the return of Ben in the cards any time in the near future, so I don’t have a problem reading about Kaine’s struggles to overcome his inner demons. And if he does ever lose that battle, his stint as a hero and all he’s accomplished would make the story all the more bittersweet. Either way, I’m just glad Marvel brought him back.

[Aioros22]

The red guy is Toxin and the purple symbiote on the right is Scorn:

You learn something new everyday, I appreciate the info.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I'd definitely agree with 99. Spider-Girl was good but doesn't count. And Chapter One plus the terrible main books drags everything into the toilet.

Some years in the 70s were bad, too. I hate the Marv Wolfman issues.

[oldschool]

I'd definitely agree with 99. Spider-Girl was good but doesn't count. And Chapter One plus the terrible main books drags everything into the toilet.

Some years in the 70s were bad, too. I hate the Marv Wolfman issues.

Marv Wolfman's run was really "a tale of two cities" for me; the first half of his run was deathly boring with villains like White Dragon, the Big Wheel (ugh), a lukewarm Chameleon appearance and Rocket Racer. His second half, however, from roughly #190-200 is one of the best 10-issue stretches on ASM ever to me. But, even without that, I find his earlier work to just be weak---much like most of Len Wein's run was before it (except for the GG 3 arc) and certainly not "bad" in the sense that the stories were in 1999.

[ishikabe]

End of 2007 to 2008. Basically OMD part three through the first year of BND. I like part 1 and 2 of OMD, the iron man fight was awesome

+1 all the way

[Pav]

Let's continue the drifting!

OK Last one about this! I promise! Him being healed made him a perfect clone, which obviously took away the madness from clone degeneration, and in my mind, arguably induced a progressive personality change. Note that he only really becomes quippy and heroic as the book goes on and even then it's not the same style of humor of Spider-Man. My way of seeing it and based on Yost's interviews is that, when the degeneration cure kicked in, he was rushed by a semblance of Peter's conscience, buried behind the madness; what would happen if Peter Parker woke up one day and realized he had been a murderous ##%$? Kaine's frequent breakdowns amount to that. And then there's the (anti)hero's journey, etc...

While we don't see exactly eye-to-eye on the issue, I definitely think your perspective makes a lot of sense. I especially find your idea of "Peter Parker waking up to find he had been a murderer" very enlightening; I can see Yost himself considering such an angle in the formation of the book and the (progression of the) character. I guess my issue isn't so much that Kaine acted out of character or anything like that; instead, I just feel like I've seen this Kaine already - I met him as Ben Reilly in the Lost Years miniseries: a man who wants to be terrible because he feels he's terrible, yet can't help but attempt at doing good. And I don't want to feel like Kaine is just the stand-in for Ben. Of course, on the other hand, the fact that what Kaine is going through now is akin to what Ben went through creates the expectation of major similarities.

At the risk of perpetuating a potential thread drift…

I think the conversation you’re both having about Kaine is a fascinating one. I enjoyed Yost’s take on the character (more so in the beginning), especially since it meant the return of an awesome character who had been swept under the rug for many years following the perceived-toxicity of the clone saga.

But although Ben and Kaine remain two very different characters, I think Kaine has essentially taken over Ben’s role as the “clone of Spider-Man trying to do the right thing.” If Ben Reilly were to ever return, I think Kaine would take on a more villainous (or at least less heroic) disposition. As someone who really liked Ben Reilly and also enjoyed Kaine as a twisted version of Peter with a shred of conscience, I wouldn’t be adverse to a story along those lines happening.

Sadly, I don’t see the return of Ben in the cards any time in the near future, so I don’t have a problem reading about Kaine’s struggles to overcome his inner demons. And if he does ever lose that battle, his stint as a hero and all he’s accomplished would make the story all the more bittersweet. Either way, I’m just glad Marvel brought him back.

KotC - I agree with basically all you said. I'd love to see a return of the "classic Kaine" but I have no problem with him taking on the role vacated by Ben due to his death. It's flippin' cool that there are people at Marvel who like the character and want to use him.

-Pav, who still remembers the excitement he felt when Kaine attacked those Scriers well after the end of the Clone Saga...

[PeterAvenger]

To each their own, I think Superior is quite possibly the greatest Spidey run of all time. It felt a little rushed at the the end but I love the chance they took with it and loved how it played out.

You're messing with us, aren't you?

[Xenon]

OMD was better written than 100 and 10% of Superior

No...just...I dislike Superior as much as the next guy, but....no.

[Mister Mets]

You're messing with us, aren't you?

Probably not. It was well-received.

No...just...I dislike Superior as much as the next guy, but....no.

Rhetorically, it seems a bit strange to see the phrase "as much as the next guy" in reference to something that is, at worse, divisive.

It's a phrasing that only works, unless you're being funny about it, if you share a majority opinion. IE- I like ice cream as much as the next guy, or I hate homelesseness as much as the next guy.

[oldschool]

Probably not. It was well-received.

Rhetorically, it seems a bit strange to see the phrase "as much as the next guy" in reference to something that is, at worse, divisive.

It's a phrasing that only works, unless you're being funny about it, if you share a majority opinion. IE- I like ice cream as much as the next guy, or I hate homelesseness as much as the next guy.

Agreed----"Superior" was a run that was unusually well-received both critically and commercially; of course, there are some that it just didn't work for but it remained such a hot seller through 30-someodd issues and, with very few exceptions, received pretty terrific reviews as well.

[Scott Taylor]

For me its 2007 for obvious reasons. It retconned 20 years of stories, including the entire year of 2007, and thats a bad fan decision regardless of the end.

[Webhead]

Let's continue the drifting!



While we don't see exactly eye-to-eye on the issue, I definitely think your perspective makes a lot of sense. I especially find your idea of "Peter Parker waking up to find he had been a murderer" very enlightening; I can see Yost himself considering such an angle in the formation of the book and the (progression of the) character. I guess my issue isn't so much that Kaine acted out of character or anything like that; instead, I just feel like I've seen this Kaine already - I met him as Ben Reilly in the Lost Years miniseries: a man who wants to be terrible because he feels he's terrible, yet can't help but attempt at doing good. And I don't want to feel like Kaine is just the stand-in for Ben. Of course, on the other hand, the fact that what Kaine is going through now is akin to what Ben went through creates the expectation of major similarities.



KotC - I agree with basically all you said. I'd love to see a return of the "classic Kaine" but I have no problem with him taking on the role vacated by Ben due to his death. It's flippin' cool that there are people at Marvel who like the character and want to use him.

-Pav, who still remembers the excitement he felt when Kaine attacked those Scriers well after the end of the Clone Saga...

I can get behind this. Good talk, gentlemen.

[magnum]

Wow, Superior the greatest run of all time!!! Yikes. To each there own but in my opinion it is far, far, far from the greatest. But hey if you liked it that is all that matters.

To each their own, I think Superior is quite possibly the greatest Spidey run of all time. It felt a little rushed at the the end but I love the chance they took with it and loved how it played out. It actually helped bring me back to Spidey after quitting due to OMD.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Yeah, I think Yost actually suffers from the same "problem" as Slott: both of them write comics that remind you consistently that you're reading a comic book, which (in my mind) tends to hurt any emphasis on the drama.

1.Does that make sense to you guys? I could maybe try to explain what I mean in more depth.



QFT. It's not that it wasn't good. It just didn't hit enough high notes for me, especially after the first handful of issues. Part of the problem, I think, is that (in my view) Yost never really got Kaine's voice quite right. I maintain that he was portrayed as "Gruff Ben Reilly" rather than an extension of who he was before he was healed.

2.I think Yost was too jokey as well. Kaine quipped way too much.

-Pav, who would love to see Si Spurrier tackle the character...

1. No, I don't get it. You're going to have too break it down for me too understand.

2. I didn't notice him quipping all that much and when he did the humor seemed different from Amazing.

At the risk of perpetuating a potential thread drift…

I think the conversation you’re both having about Kaine is a fascinating one. I enjoyed Yost’s take on the character (more so in the beginning), especially since it meant the return of an awesome character who had been swept under the rug for many years following the perceived-toxicity of the clone saga.

But although Ben and Kaine remain two very different characters, I think Kaine has essentially taken over Ben’s role as the “clone of Spider-Man trying to do the right thing.” If Ben Reilly were to ever return, I think Kaine would take on a more villainous (or at least less heroic) disposition. As someone who really liked Ben Reilly and also enjoyed Kaine as a twisted version of Peter with a shred of conscience, I wouldn’t be adverse to a story along those lines happening.

Sadly, I don’t see the return of Ben in the cards any time in the near future, so I don’t have a problem reading about Kaine’s struggles to overcome his inner demons. And if he does ever lose that battle, his stint as a hero and all he’s accomplished would make the story all the more bittersweet. Either way, I’m just glad Marvel brought him back.

If I'm going too be brutally honest I don't think making Kaine more like his original self would be a good idea. I think overcoming his inner demons would be much more interesting even if they did bring Reilly back. If they did that I'd like too see Ben trying too keep Kaine from going back too his old roots.

Let's continue the drifting!



While we don't see exactly eye-to-eye on the issue, I definitely think your perspective makes a lot of sense. I especially find your idea of "Peter Parker waking up to find he had been a murderer" very enlightening; I can see Yost himself considering such an angle in the formation of the book and the (progression of the) character. I guess my issue isn't so much that Kaine acted out of character or anything like that; instead, I just feel like I've seen this Kaine already - I met him as Ben Reilly in the Lost Years miniseries: a man who wants to be terrible because he feels he's terrible, yet can't help but attempt at doing good. And I don't want to feel like Kaine is just the stand-in for Ben. Of course, on the other hand, the fact that what Kaine is going through now is akin to what Ben went through creates the expectation of major similarities.



KotC - I agree with basically all you said. I'd love to see a return of the "classic Kaine" but I have no problem with him taking on the role vacated by Ben due to his death. It's flippin' cool that there are people at Marvel who like the character and want to use him.

-Pav, who still remembers the excitement he felt when Kaine attacked those Scriers well after the end of the Clone Saga...

So would you say this is a case of a generational gap? I personally never got a chance too read Ben Reilly's adventures. The first time I saw him was in the Fox series. Most of what I know comes from other sources and back issues.

OMD was better written than 100 and 10% of Superior

I think I've made no secret that I dislike Superior. It was not worse than OMD. On par maybe but not worse.