Superman in Batman The Dark Knight Returns

[Luthornado]

I just watched the animated film version of Batman The Dark Knight Returns for the first time, having read the comic book numerous times before, of course.

I'm a Batman-fan, so I like this story a lot. However, I'm also a Superman-fan, and while I think the fight between them is pretty cool, I dislike the character that is Superman in this story; being the marionette doll of USA government, and seemingly having forgotten all about the good work Bruce does in Gotham as Batman.

I wonder, what is the general opinion from Superman-fans on this story? Do you generally share my thoughts, or do you see it differently?

[Doctor Know]

Superman's chracterization in TDKReturns is a-ok with me. I know most people get hung up on Supes taking orders from Reagan and getting beat up by Batman in the end but they seem to ignore all the other things Supes does in the book. Like keep the cold war between the US and Russia from escalating to full scale war. TDKReturns was meant to be an answer to Watchmen. Both comics paint the world as being dystopias. So naturally characters will be a little rougher around the edges. Superman narrates that he doesn't agree with the current policy but he obeys because he will out last them. People get voted in and out of office. Superman was waiting for that change. Plus by cooperating with the Gov't Supes still got to save lives. Which is very important to Superman.

Another thing people forget is Superman diverting that gigantic nuke Russia fired at Corto Maltesse/The US. We saw the effects of the blast on the Eastern Seaboard of the US and the effect it had on Superman. Had Supes not diverted it in to space/that desert; who knows how much worse things could've been. Supes was a hero in TDKReturns but not THE HERO, since it was a Batman title.


Last we get to the fight. There are many ways to interpret this.
David (Batman) vs Goliath (Superman)
Hero (Batman) vs Oppressor (Superman)
Renegade Vigilante (Batman) vs Gov't/State Authority (Superman)
Dark Hero vs Light Hero
Friend vs Friend

Batman was going to win by virtue of the book being titled after him. When you really analyze the fight you see that Batman through everything he had to bring a weakened Superman down; Battleship battery, Missiles, thousands of volts from the city, bombs, acid, power armor and finally Kryptonite. Supes took it all that punishment but still tried to talk to Bats about surrendering. Even after inhaling Kryptonite dust and taking more blows; Supes was still concerned about Bruce's health (the heart attack Batman was having). These weren't mortal enemies dueling. These were friends who were trying to communicate their intentions to one another. Superman wanted to use words, Batman wanted to use violence.

Most people don't see the many nuances to this fight. Most Batman fans see "BATGOD ROFL STOMPING SUPERMAN!!! BATMAN with prep >>>> EVERYONE".

I want you to think about Batman's final speech to Superman for a second. After Green Arrow fires the arrow Batman says this, "It wasn't easy to make, Clark. It took years and cost a fortune. Luckily, I had both". Now what was Batman doing at the beginning of TDKReturns? He was in retirement and looking for a good death in the form of thrill/danger seeking. Bruce spent 10 years in retirement doing nothing his his unlimited wealth and resources to help anyone. But making synthetic kryptonite was a priority for him. Remember TDKReturns takes place in a dystopia. A lot of people were in need and gangs had taken over Gotham, but none of that caught Bruce's attention. Couldn't let anything get in the way of his race car driving.*Sarcasm*

Supes continued to help people during Batman's hiatus, while Bruce sat on his hands until something bad enough could motivate him to put on his costume again. Both are heroes in this book like I said, but Batman is the primary character. Supes was just the final stepping stone to making Batman look good.

[chlj1]

I went out an purchase that dvd when it came out! I was very disappointed in the way that SM was portrayed, being a big SM fan. I watched it once and was going to throw the dvd away, that how much I disliked it! But gave the dvd to a friend instead that is a big Batgod fan.

[dancj]

Char Aznable put it all very well for me. I'm a Superman fan first and a Batman fan second, but I have no issues with DTKR.

Superman was a noble man who made a bad sacrifice so he could continue saving lives. Batman was a crazed vigilante who was excessively brutal and inspired villains to come out of the woodwork.

Neither character in the books is a black or white good guy or bad guy. They both trod different grey lines.

[Adekis]

I'm in the camp of firm opposition to Kent's characterization in The Dark Knight Returns, and I think it's telling that in the comic, he's never called Superman. Always Kent or Clark. In my mind, this is because he doesn't live up to being Superman the way he ought to.

Superman goes along with the corrupt government in going underground because... why exactly?
The whole point of Clark Kent being Superman instead of just Smallville-ing all over the place and covertly helping people using his powers is because Superman is a symbol. And what that symbol does is to inspire people to do good to each other and to inspire fear in criminals- terrorists, thugs, or corrupt executives or elected officials- who know that Superman is out there. Morrison caught some flak for his line in Action Comics #1, but I think it's exactly right when Superman says "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right, or expect a visit from me". Superman doesn't stand for corruption. Superman doesn't hide in the shadows because he's afraid of making a splash. Superman wants to make a splash. Superman wants to change the world.

That character doesn't exist in DKR. Instead, we get a man who sits there and lets the government run Green Arrow, a hero one hundred percent, into hiding and even take off his arm. I don't know the circumstances of that lost arm, but I know Superman didn't stop it getting taken off. We get a man who lets Ronald Reagan order him to take in the one man who Superman knows is keeping Gotham City stable in the aftermath of the EMP, when he really ought to be focusing on getting everywhere else back to stability too.

Sure, there's moments where Superman acts like he should- "Twenty million die by fire if I am weak" comes to mind. And there's no doubt that between he and Batman, he's the more level-headed one. Batman blaming the EMP on Clark is a big "are you f***ing kidding me" moment, personally- but there's still no doubt that Superman betrays a lot of his own principals to go along with the government in DKR.

DKR is one of my favorite Batman stories of all time, and I also think it's responsible for a lot of poor trends in the Superman sphere.

[Johnny Thunders!]

DKR is amazing, a classic, but Superman has never been the same since. Bats calls him Clark to punk him. In the sequel, he pummels Supes again and tosses him out of the Batcave. The only Superman in that book is Batman.

[Doctor Know]

^ We do not speak of the TDKSA or ASBAR. Both of them are parodies of Miller's Batman. Miller drove his version of the character off a cliff with TDKSA. No one, not even Batman looks good in that series.

[dancj]

^ We do not speak of the TDKSA or ASBAR. Both of them are parodies of Miller's Batman. Miller drove his version of the character off a cliff with TDKSA. No one, not even Batman looks good in that series.

I do. They're good books.

[Powerboy]

I just watched the animated film version of Batman The Dark Knight Returns for the first time, having read the comic book numerous times before, of course.

I'm a Batman-fan, so I like this story a lot. However, I'm also a Superman-fan, and while I think the fight between them is pretty cool, I dislike the character that is Superman in this story; being the marionette doll of USA government, and seemingly having forgotten all about the good work Bruce does in Gotham as Batman.

I wonder, what is the general opinion from Superman-fans on this story? Do you generally share my thoughts, or do you see it differently?

And being a scientific ignoramus, the opposite of the Superman of that era.

I generally liked the story. I took it as obvious parody, obvious from everything from the artwork with exxagerated, jut-jawed characters, to Reagan still being president, etc. I likewise took the portrayal of Superman as simply the same absurd exxageration as Batman himself, simply taking each character to his slippery slope extreme.

What surprised me and started making me dislike the story were two things, both of them reactions from people I knew. The first was a reaction about how Batman "kicked Superman's butt" which is pointless in a "fight" where one of the people doesn't want the fight to begin with and is holding back almost completely. The other and more significant factor was how many people I knew who perceived Superman as always being like he was portrayed in this story including being a jerk. Basically the run of the mill reaction of people who don't like the character and don't perceive any subtle nuances that make the character work.

Of course, this is an outside standard and not fair to apply to the story itself. Miller gave essentially the same origin in "Year One" without the jut-jawed parody and extremism and was obviously on an editorial leash.

Some friends have said the popularity of DKR resulted from the fact that "everything was nicey-nice before that and DKR broke the mold" which only tells us that they gave up on DC during the Silver Age and pretty much missed the Bronze Age.

I'll admit that, outside of the timing, I can't see why the story is such a big deal. It's really just extremism and works by appeal to a certain crowd. Clearly it worked for a majority because it launched Batman into being DC's number one character.

[manduck37]

As a Superman fan, I always thought there was a big misunderstanding of Superman in Miller's TDKR. Not by Miller, necessarily, as this is an exaggeration of both Batman and Superman to fit a "what if" kind of story. Rather by the reading audience. This isn't a "Batman kicks Superman's ass" story, as that isn't what happened. It's a story about a man in the twilight of his life (Batman) trying to figure out how he can change the world he lives in.

We have a set in his ways Batman trying to change a corrupt Gotham and U.S. using the same methods he did in his younger years. It's important to note, that his methods clearly didn't work as he became an alcholoic, retired, and Gotham ended up worse than ever. Still, he's a stubborn man, so he does what he always did. He insisted he was right, tried to use his old tactics, and acted a bit hot headed. He triumphs over the Mutants, but still nothing really changes in Gotham. So he learns that he need something new. He can't continue as Batman and fix the problem. Batman and his tactics are a thing of the past. Instead, he needs the youth of his time to step up and try to change the system themselves. Something he learns working with his new Robin. So he's going to go underground and work with the younger generation to hopefully lead to a change.

Now in order to go off the grid, he decides he's going to fake his own death. If everyone is going to believe he's dead, he needs to make a show of it. So he stages a showdown with Superman, knowing the government will send Superman anyway. Bruce knows Superman. He's hoping Superman will still do the right thing. Turns out, Batman was right. Superman does show up and he does do the right thing. Superman never really tries to take Batman down. They're friends and Superman respects Batman. So Superman takes everthing Batman can throw at him and doesn't really try to fight back. We see this in several moments during the fight. When Superman hits Batman, it's only to dent or break his armor. When Batman's helmet comes off, Superman never just punches him in the face and ends the fight, he switches to all body shots where the armor is. Superman, who is almost as fast as the Flash and has Super Senses to boot, takes the kryptonite arror fired by Oliver. As far as projectiles go in the modern world, arrows aren't that fast and Superman certainly would have heard the bow string. Dodging a kryptonite arrow would be child's play for Superman. But he stands there and takes it. During the entire fight, Superman tries to talk to Batman. At the end, with the kryptonine arrow, Superman even mentions Bruce is about to have a heart attack. Getting back to the kryptonite, it's an artificial version that Batman whipped up. It's not as strong and it's temporary. If they were really fighting, Batman wouldn't use nerf kryptonite that will fade.

We learn that that heart attack and "death" were staged with drugs and chemicals. What does Superman do? He winks at Robin and keeps Bruce's secret. He does the right thing. The world sees a showdown where Batman threw everything at Superman, missiles, the power grid, and kryptonite. They see Superman peeling Batman out of his armor. They see Batman have a heart attack and "die". Even that famous "I'm the one that beat you" speech Batman gives to Superman is part of the act. Batman is putting on a show for his younger audience, to encourage them to stand up and change things. If Batman can "stand up" to Superman, they can stand up too. Both Superman and Batman know that the world will be watching their fight. So they both put on a convincing act.

Superman knows that Batman is a planner. He trusts that Batman will have a plan to escape and he'll help. Batman knows that Superman is a good person deep down. He trusts that in the moment of truth Superman will do the right thing. That's how it plays out. The entire thing is a farce. Superman and Batman are conning their way out of a difficult situation so that they both benefit. Batman gets to keep operating, working with the younger generation to change the system. Superman gets to keep helping people as an official superhero. If Batman is successful and brings about real change, it will free the both of them.

What strikes me as really funny, the entire thing was so well planned out by Batman that even the readers bought into the scam. Everyone though that Batman could take Superman down with planning and that isn't what happened at all. Even Batman knew he didn't stand a chance. He just had to hope Superman would do the right thing and help him. You don't go into a fight looking to win it by taking a drug that will simulate a heart attack. Batman puts on his show and waits for the drug to work. When the drug kicks in, Superman plays along.

[daBronzeBomma]

I'm very clear on how I feel about THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

As a piece of comix history, it is a masterpiece, certainly for its time.

As a piece of Batman lore, it is arguably his greatest story ever (I said arguably: personally I prefer YEAR ONE).

As it relates to Superman? Well ....

Some of you have pointed out the many nuances, the entirely valid points in Superman's favor within the story.

It doesn't matter. The intent does not matter.

The effect is all that matters.

And the effect on Superman?

Unmitigated disaster.

The casual fan and the general public only remember this:



and this:



They quote Bruce's lines to Clark:

"It's way past time I showed you what it means to be a man."

"I want you to remember Clark, in all the years to come, in your most private moments ... I want to remember MY hand at YOUR throat ... I want you to remember the man who BEAT you."

The story itself almost doesn't matter. What matters is this story affected the perception of Superman so greatly. Superman was already going through a creative rut prior to DKR, but effect of this story was two-fold:

One, John Byrne loved it so much that he based his Iron Age revamp of Superman around the idea that his new Superman would eventually become Frank Miller's Superman. That vile thought makes my skin crawl as a Superman fan and really makes me rethink how highly I hold the Post-CoIE Superman.

Two, Batman's coolness factor, already on the rise, shot through the roof, while Superman's cool factor, already beleaguered, sanked to the basement.

Where's the epic Superman story where Batman is the putz who fails, to balance the scales ? We never got it, and we likely never will.

So, as a comix fan, salute THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS. It was a mold-breaker for its time.

But, as a Superman fan?

F*** THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

[N7 Joseph Shepard]

I hate Frank Miller's version of Superman simply because he has no clue how to write him as proven in The Dark Knight Returns, in fact the only character Miller wrote properly to an extent WAS Batman and Batman alone, nearly everyone else is royally screwed up and out of character.

It works as what it is, an isolated story that has no connection to anything else but as soon as you try to integrate it into the main storyline then everything goes wonky because again the only character that it works for is Batman, but if you try to apply the same traits of the DKR Superman to the main one, they clash. One does what he's told without really questioning it, the other does what he feels is right and doesn't take orders from anyone unless he trusts them, and please dont go and say he trusted the President cause even he was written in such a way that you had to be blind not to see how corrupted he was in which Superman from the get go should have super kicked him in the nuts lol.

[N7 Joseph Shepard]

One, John Byrne loved it so much that he based his Iron Age revamp of Superman around the idea that his new Superman would eventually become Frank Miller's Superman. That vile thought makes my skin crawl as a Superman fan and really makes me rethink how highly I hold the Post-CoIE Superman.

think on the bright side, that may have been the original intent, but as we all know now....thats not what happened thankfully, I wish DC would grow a pair of balls for once and actually have Superman outright beat Batman, I mean sure we have plenty of stories where Superman has beaten him, but there has always been a catch such as Batman is corrupted by power, Superman in mind controlled etc. The Dark Knight Returns has them both as themselves knowing full well whats happening and what they need to do.

If Batman is someone who can beat Superman then by all rights Superman should get a story where he outright beats Batman. The whole issue of that was Superman is so powerful, who can beat him? Great now we get an idea that under those circumstances Batman has a real chance, but what does that do at the same time? Shifts that question to become "who can beat Batman?".....answer.....Superman.....now lets see it already

[Guy1]

think on the bright side, that may have been the original intent, but as we all know now....thats not what happened thankfully, I wish DC would grow a pair of balls for once and actually have Superman outright beat Batman, I mean sure we have plenty of stories where Superman has beaten him, but there has always been a catch such as Batman is corrupted by power, Superman in mind controlled etc. The Dark Knight Returns has them both as themselves knowing full well whats happening and what they need to do.

If Batman is someone who can beat Superman then by all rights Superman should get a story where he outright beats Batman. The whole issue of that was Superman is so powerful, who can beat him? Great now we get an idea that under those circumstances Batman has a real chance, but what does that do at the same time? Shifts that question to become "who can beat Batman?".....answer.....Superman.....now lets see it already

the Smallville Comic had Superman slapping Batman around like a child, as did New 52.

[N7 Joseph Shepard]

the Smallville Comic had Superman slapping Batman around like a child, as did New 52.

Those weren't really fights, in Smallville it was their first encounter in which Superman was more on the defensive since he wanted answers as to why Batman was in Metropolis. And the few times in the new 52 stuff has been mind control or against their will, neither wanted to fight the other where in The Dark Knight Returns Superman is under orders to take in Batman, Bruce however wants to fight Superman as it was part of his plan to go underground.