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  1. #1546
    Incredible Member Powertool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennSimpson View Post
    I do sorta have this weird fantasy about DC rebooting again, and this time, from that point on, everything that has, say, Superman in it (movies, TV, cartoons, comics) all actually fit together, the way Star Wars does. Same for the rest of the characters.

    I know, never happen.
    You mean before or after they canned the whole Expanded Universe? :thisforumneedsarollseyesemoticon:

    Anyway, it would never, ever, EVER work with comic book characters with 70+ years of editorial life behind them, especially Superman. Everyone knows how Han Solo is supposed to be characterised, but Kal-El of Krypton? I must have read at least a hundred thousand posts in the last four years by people who complain about New52 Superman not feeling like "real Superman" and I distinctly remember feeling the same way during that whole World of New Krypton/Grounded hullabaloo before Flashpoint. We have a very vocal faction who wants the magic of the Silver Age back to Big Blue's titles, while another equally outspoken one (sometimes paradoxically overlapping with the former) believes that Superman's superhero mission means nothing without Clark Kent's life as a normal human being. Somebody thinks the pre-Flashpoint marriage was a colossal millstone for the character, others refuse to read anything where Lois Lane isn't at least a co-protagonist.

    A lot like Judaism (a very convenient analogy, given Siegel and Shuster's roots), Superman means something different to everyone. It may be a terrible status quo for the editorial line as a whole since that means that it's damn near impossible to write something that is liked by everybody, but streamlining the character -- making a single version that can be indifferently used in all media so that everything can be thought as being part of a single continuity -- is absolutely impossible. One version would have to preval above all the others forever and then -- Rao help us all.
    Last edited by Powertool; 01-12-2016 at 04:05 PM.

  2. #1547
    Astonishing Member RobinFan4880's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Marvel didn't have to do much to make Guardians like the very popular movie
    Once you know an audience is there for a franchise they will back it big
    The problem with Arrow and Flash is that while they are good shows the audience does not overlap with the current comic buying demographic.
    The Walking Dead got a big boost because of the tv show becoming a hit

    Why aren't Flash and Arrow seeing similar boosts? The audience isn't there maybe that can change after the Flash movie
    I disagree. DNA's run was very different than the movies, in terms of characters used, the look/feel, the scope and writing style.

    Bendis' Guardians match the movie almost to a T.

    One of the other unique aspects of Guardians was that it was a niche family of characters to begin with that only a minority of comic fans had read or even cared about. Marvel stepped up in a big way and capitalized in the spike in interest in the characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennSimpson View Post
    I do sorta have this weird fantasy about DC rebooting again, and this time, from that point on, everything that has, say, Superman in it (movies, TV, cartoons, comics) all actually fit together, the way Star Wars does. Same for the rest of the characters.

    I know, never happen.
    It won't happen. Star Wars has 30 years worth of history of integrating movies, TV shows, books, comics and games. They run a tight ship over there. I don't think it could ever work for DC. Plus, Disney owns the TV station that Rebels is on, owns Lucasfilm and owns Marvel. The only wing of their multimedia empire that they do not own is Del Rey. That kind of vertical arrangement is something DC cannot replicate. Just look at their TV shows, three of them are on a network the WB only half owns and the two others are on rival networks (CBS and Fox). The cartoons are completely despised by the leadership at CN. The movie people don't talk to the TV people, who don't talk to the animation studios, who barely talk to the comic guys. It just wouldn't work.

    Plus, part of the appeal of Star Wars is that there is an entire galaxy to explore and, at a minimum, a hundred years worth of time to explore in the common story telling era (between the time when Obi-Wan was a Padawan to the Episode VII era. That is a lot of history to explore and delve into. Superheroes would not be the same, at all since most are still normal people and would be "useless" as crime fighters after 20 years. You can't just introduce new characters since there is so much resistance to it. People care more about the core heroes and their adventures more than the adventures of their forebears or descendants.

  3. #1548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powertool View Post
    You mean before or after they canned the whole Expanded Universe? :thisforumneedsarollseyesemoticon:

    Anyway, it would never, ever, EVER work with comic book characters with 70+ years of editorial life behind them, especially Superman. Everyone knows how Han Solo is supposed to be characterised, but Kal-El of Krypton? I must have read at least a hundred thousand posts in the last four years by people who complain about New52 Superman not feeling like "real Superman" and I distinctly remember feeling the same way during that whole World of New Krypton/Grounded hullabaloo before Flashpoint. We have a very vocal faction who wants the magic of the Silver Age back to Big Blue's titles, while another equally outspoken one (sometimes paradoxically overlapping with the former) believes that Superman's superhero mission means nothing without Clark Kent's life as a normal human being. Somebody thinks the pre-Flashpoint marriage was a colossal millstone for the character, others refuse to read anything where Lois Lane isn't at least a co-protagonist.

    A lot like Judaism (a very convenient analogy, given Siegel and Shuster's roots), Superman means something different to everyone. It may be a terrible status quo for the editorial line as a whole since that means that it's damn near impossible to write something that is liked by everybody, but streamlining the character -- making a single version that can be indifferently used in all media so that everything can be thought as being part of a single continuity -- is absolutely impossible. One version would have to preval above all the others forever and then -- Rao help us all.
    FWIW, I was suggesting a reboot, and then everything AFTER the reboot would fit together, not anything before. Much like Star Wars did, in a way.

  4. #1549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powertool View Post
    You mean before or after they canned the whole Expanded Universe? :thisforumneedsarollseyesemoticon:

    Anyway, it would never, ever, EVER work with comic book characters with 70+ years of editorial life behind them, especially Superman. Everyone knows how Han Solo is supposed to be characterised, but Kal-El of Krypton?
    I would say for SW there is also disagreement. For example in the NuEU continuity for Luke up to TFA I find his actions to be very disconcerting and OOC for him. I kind of understand how the anti-Nu52 people feel now.

  5. #1550
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinFan4880 View Post
    I disagree. DNA's run was very different than the movies, in terms of characters used, the look/feel, the scope and writing style.

    Bendis' Guardians match the movie almost to a T.

    One of the other unique aspects of Guardians was that it was a niche family of characters to begin with that only a minority of comic fans had read or even cared about. Marvel stepped up in a big way and capitalized in the spike in interest in the characters.



    It won't happen. Star Wars has 30 years worth of history of integrating movies, TV shows, books, comics and games. They run a tight ship over there. I don't think it could ever work for DC. Plus, Disney owns the TV station that Rebels is on, owns Lucasfilm and owns Marvel. The only wing of their multimedia empire that they do not own is Del Rey. That kind of vertical arrangement is something DC cannot replicate. Just look at their TV shows, three of them are on a network the WB only half owns and the two others are on rival networks (CBS and Fox). The cartoons are completely despised by the leadership at CN. The movie people don't talk to the TV people, who don't talk to the animation studios, who barely talk to the comic guys. It just wouldn't work.

    Plus, part of the appeal of Star Wars is that there is an entire galaxy to explore and, at a minimum, a hundred years worth of time to explore in the common story telling era (between the time when Obi-Wan was a Padawan to the Episode VII era. That is a lot of history to explore and delve into. Superheroes would not be the same, at all since most are still normal people and would be "useless" as crime fighters after 20 years. You can't just introduce new characters since there is so much resistance to it. People care more about the core heroes and their adventures more than the adventures of their forebears or descendants.
    Too bad that the Star Wars dynamic would theoretically work in the DC Universe... if they used the JSA for Episodes 1-3, the JLA for Episodes 4-6 and the Legion for Episodes 7-9.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  6. #1551
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinFan4880 View Post
    I disagree. DNA's run was very different than the movies, in terms of characters used, the look/feel, the scope and writing style.

    Bendis' Guardians match the movie almost to a T.

    One of the other unique aspects of Guardians was that it was a niche family of characters to begin with that only a minority of comic fans had read or even cared about. Marvel stepped up in a big way and capitalized in the spike in interest in the characters.
    Yeah, as much as it's touted that the movie was based off the DnA run, the movie basically took characters from the main roster and reinvented pretty much the entire thing from personalities, to tone, and even what the team is like. The Guardians were basically rebooted when they came back under Bendis.

  7. #1552
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennSimpson View Post
    FWIW, I was suggesting a reboot, and then everything AFTER the reboot would fit together, not anything before. Much like Star Wars did, in a way.
    Unfortunately, as I've already written in my first post, fans' standards about the way Superman should be characterised vary almost from person to person. And a very old truth about standards is that you can't standardise them, just add one to the list and hope that as many people as possible adopt it. If your suggestion actually became reality, I can already figure the first few pages of the CBR thread about newly-rebooted Action Comics 1.

    "Backtracking to this parody of what Superman is supposed to be, just when the New52 one had finally shown his worth? For shame, DC, for shame!"
    "Flashpoint ended the career of the best Superman ever when things were finally starting to look up... and now this?"
    "Another lost opportunity for DC to give us a Superman that is worth even a tenth of the one in All-Star Superman. This is it, I'm done with this wreck of a company!"
    "Just... just bring back Loeb, please. He was the only one who knew what to do with the character."
    "My God, Superman, what have they done to you? Triangle era FTW! Clois >>>>>>>>> your OTP!!"
    "It's useless, no version of Kal-El will ever beat Elliot S! Maggin's."
    "What's this PC, Tumblr-pandering, agist crap?! The Silver Age Superman, that was a real superhero, as American as apple pie and the Bible!"
    "Get out of this thread, Adolf-smoocher! MY Superman, the REAL Superman, voted FDR and dealt with the lot of you with the knuckles of his bare fists!"
    "Guys, calm down. I don't see what you're arguing about. This comic book is the first time I read anything Superman-related and I don't understand how any of the old stuff can be better than this!"

    Titles are rebooted. The same cannot be said about readerships.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    I would say for SW there is also disagreement. For example in the NuEU continuity for Luke up to TFA I find his actions to be very disconcerting and OOC for him. I kind of understand how the anti-Nu52 people feel now.
    Really? I have to trust you on this issue since everything I know next to nothing about the new EU. What I know about the old one comes from the books I occasionally borrow from a friend of mine, who is perhaps the only person in the world who hasn't yet seen TFA, nor plans to do so in the near future (seeing the bad guy clearly being not-Admiral Thrawne completely killed his hype). I remember I was joking with my fellow movie-goers at the end of SW VII about Luke's choice to turn into a hermit to be a very poor one, but I didn't know that there were other skeleton in old Skywalker's closet.

  8. #1553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powertool View Post
    I remember I was joking with my fellow movie-goers at the end of SW VII about Luke's choice to turn into a hermit to be a very poor one, but I didn't know that there were other skeleton in old Skywalker's closet.
    I'm referring specifically to the entire hermit thing and practically abandoning everything to ruin. It's much worse in the official novelization imo.
    Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 01-13-2016 at 09:36 AM.

  9. #1554
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    Just posting the last sales data posted by Paul Newell, so that when I need it again I won't have to dig so hard

    Latest October update:

    DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan - Oct) 2015 – 19,871,259 estimated units.
    DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan - Oct) 2014 – 22,258,445 estimated units.

    And here are the figures for 1997-2014:
    2014 - 26,836,455 estimated units
    2013 - 28,184,085 estimated units
    2012 - 29,602,125 estimated units
    2011 - 26,522,201 estimated units
    2010 - 23,528,000 estimated units
    2009 - 24,126,336 estimated units
    2008 - 25,760,378 estimated units
    2007 - 29,597,217 estimated units
    2006 - 30,243,575 estimated units
    2005 - 26,995,698 estimated units
    2004 - 23,895,322 estimated units
    2003 - 22,344,120 estimated units
    2002 - 20,687,488 estimated units - Dan Didio joins DC as VP of Editorial.
    2001 - 21,220,332 estimated units
    2000 - 23,243,656 estimated units
    1999 - 25,141,760 estimated units
    1998 - 22,869,060 estimated units
    1997 - 26,323,968 estimated units


    And, out of interest, here's the Marvel numbers:

    Marvel Sales - Top 300 (Jan - Oct) 2015 – 30,895,653 estimated units.
    Marvel Sales - Top 300 (Jan - Oct) 2014 – 25,639,517 estimated units.

    And here are the figures for 1997-2014:
    2014 - 30,398,670 estimated units
    2013 - 31,243,347 estimated units
    2012 - 30,278,745 estimated units.
    2011 - 29,522,809 estimated units
    2010 - 29,998,200 estimated units
    2009 - 34,167,744 estimated units
    2008 - 37,269,988 estimated units
    2007 - 38,132,744 estimated units
    2006 - 34,647,105 estimated units
    2005 - 32,461,832 estimated units
    2004 - 32,021,066 estimated units
    2003 - 28,974,336 estimated units
    2002 - 28,473,404 estimated units
    2001 - 25,349,296 estimated units
    2000 - 21,948,494 estimated units - Joe Quesada becomes EIC.
    1999 - 24,111,104 estimated units
    1998 - 27,015,555 estimated units
    1997 - 32,664,192 estimated units

    For the most part, DC's print sales are slightly down this year...We don't know why, possibly more people buying trades and reading digitally or sales being cannibalised by Marvel's Star Wars. I did a check about three months in and Marvel's Star Wars titles accounted for about 1.5 - 2 milion extra comics being sold a month on top of Marvel's regular output....Without them, sales were on par with the regular sales trends.

  10. #1555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Marvel didn't have to do much to make Guardians like the very popular movie
    I guess if you count establishing the Marvel movie universe by releasing over 15 movies in it at that point as "not much" you might have a point. Marvel built up a large cache of goodwill and credibility with their movies before they took a risk with GoTG. Then they absolutely nailed the 1st trailer which made you actually believe a movie with a talking raccoon and walking tree might work.

  11. #1556
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennSimpson View Post
    For the most part, DC's print sales are slightly down this year...We don't know why, possibly more people buying trades and reading digitally or sales being cannibalised by Marvel's Star Wars. I did a check about three months in and Marvel's Star Wars titles accounted for about 1.5 - 2 milion extra comics being sold a month on top of Marvel's regular output....Without them, sales were on par with the regular sales trends.
    I'm merely one person but I doubt I'm alone. DC lost me with Convergence by either cancelling the books I was reading or revamping the books still going to the point I lost interest and dropped them. I haven't bought or read a DC book since August and have found I don't miss them at all.

  12. #1557
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    That is true. I had very much the same issues though I'm slowly coming back, but really DC is just not doing it outside of a handful of titles. Majority of my reading list now is either Image or Marvel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JediMindTrick View Post
    I guess if you count establishing the Marvel movie universe by releasing over 15 movies in it at that point as "not much" you might have a point. Marvel built up a large cache of goodwill and credibility with their movies before they took a risk with GoTG. Then they absolutely nailed the 1st trailer which made you actually believe a movie with a talking raccoon and walking tree might work.
    I think he meant "Marvel didn't have to change the comics (characters) that much to make them more like the movie."

  14. #1559
    Incredible Member frizb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JediMindTrick View Post
    I'm merely one person but I doubt I'm alone. DC lost me with Convergence by either cancelling the books I was reading or revamping the books still going to the point I lost interest and dropped them. I haven't bought or read a DC book since August and have found I don't miss them at all.
    Pretty much the same here except I stopped a little earlier. The couple of DC titles I still get is out of habit and haven't even been reading them. Started New 52 reading everything except the war titles. It just seems mostly meh. I'll probably catch up on Batman eventually to see if it's worth continuing, but the rest has lost me.

  15. #1560
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frizb View Post
    Pretty much the same here except I stopped a little earlier. The couple of DC titles I still get is out of habit and haven't even been reading them. Started New 52 reading everything except the war titles. It just seems mostly meh. I'll probably catch up on Batman eventually to see if it's worth continuing, but the rest has lost me.
    Forget the new continuity, the latest "big event", etc....I wonder just how good typical DC or Marvel super hero comics are, how many would be regarded as a good read by non-committed fans?

    I long since stopped reading most mainstream super hero stuff ( I still read a bit...if a favourite writer does manage to still on a series for a long run, will seek out the back issues.) But occasionally I browse the trade paperback collections at local library...and am nearly always struck just how little story there is in many of today's comics.

    Open book at random...one panel splash page, one sentence of dialogue..next page two panels...next page 4 panels and 3 sentences (steady on writer must be sweating!)...really there's naff all story.

    I know Jack Kirby could knock out worthwhile splash pages...but he kept it in balance, and he knew what he was doing.
    Last edited by JackDaw; 01-14-2016 at 12:27 AM.

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