DC Sales & Estimates

[the4thpip]

It's hard to tell without the digital numbers.

Which kind of makes it "one of several possibilities" more than "most likely," wouldn't you think?

[Joe Kalicki]

Or could be the mortality rate of an ageing fandom.

That makes sense if you want to pretend they haven't gotten a new fan in 40 years.

[The Darknight Detective]

Which kind of makes it "one of several possibilities" more than "most likely," wouldn't you think?

Except we know that digital comics are a growing market, while we have no clue as to the dwindling fanbase theory.

[Tenzel Kim]

One thing to remember, though, was that 2008 was also the Global Financial Crisis. Marvel's numbers in 2008 were affected slightly but had the same dramatic fall from 2009 to 2011.

A thing that it seems a lot of people seem to forget when looking at the numbers. Comics did seem to suffer quite a blow because of the financial crisis and if you look at the DCU sales for the following years you'd notice that the drop was slowing down and it is possible that the marked was about to slowly turn again. We'll never know for sure though as we didn't really get digital day-and-date books on a massive scale until the New 52 and and the reboot itself created a lot of attention that whether one likes it or not did cause a huge sales spike back in 2011.

I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have seen the same kind of result had they "just" relaunched the books with new number 1's but stayed within the old continuity (and made an effort to not reference past events without actually showing what you needed to know) but now a few years into the reboot I don't think the difference would have been all that great. Had they relaunched and shifted their game plan to be quicker to remove low selling books and increasing their focus on their top selling franchises such as they do with Batman at the moment, as well as having "September events/themes" and more variant covers I think sales would have been pretty much what we are seeing now.

However, it is hard to figure out where the sales are really at without any real information on digital sales. But we do know that this has been a marked that has increased every year and much more so after day-and-date was introduced for the main publishers so it would be strange had this not been the case for pre-New 52 DC as well.

I think part of Marvel Now's problem has been that even though they relaunched the books many of them we direct continuations of events that came just before and I think some of them suffered from not being new-reader friendly enough and not doing enough to explain why we were in the new "status quo". But Marvel Now actually started out very strong and the slow roll-out made it hard to really compare to the New 52. I did a calculation based on the average number of copies sold of New 52 titles and Marvel Now titles and Marvel Now did remarkably well. I believe the impact has lessened with every new wave of Marvel Now relaunches though so I in the end don't think this is an ideal solution either.

Anyway, my point was that when looking at the numbers there are a lot of elements to take into account and because the market has changed somewhat and that things are handled differently at both companies it becomes much harder to really compare past numbers to the current situation, and as always numbers are kind as you can get them to show pretty much whatever you want them to show depending on your analysis.

[GlennSimpson]

A thing that it seems a lot of people seem to forget when looking at the numbers. Comics did seem to suffer quite a blow because of the financial crisis and if you look at the DCU sales for the following years you'd notice that the drop was slowing down and it is possible that the marked was about to slowly turn again. We'll never know for sure though as we didn't really get digital day-and-date books on a massive scale until the New 52 and and the reboot itself created a lot of attention that whether one likes it or not did cause a huge sales spike back in 2011.

I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have seen the same kind of result had they "just" relaunched the books with new number 1's but stayed within the old continuity (and made an effort to not reference past events without actually showing what you needed to know) but now a few years into the reboot I don't think the difference would have been all that great. Had they relaunched and shifted their game plan to be quicker to remove low selling books and increasing their focus on their top selling franchises such as they do with Batman at the moment, as well as having "September events/themes" and more variant covers I think sales would have been pretty much what we are seeing now.

However, it is hard to figure out where the sales are really at without any real information on digital sales. But we do know that this has been a marked that has increased every year and much more so after day-and-date was introduced for the main publishers so it would be strange had this not been the case for pre-New 52 DC as well.

I think part of Marvel Now's problem has been that even though they relaunched the books many of them we direct continuations of events that came just before and I think some of them suffered from not being new-reader friendly enough and not doing enough to explain why we were in the new "status quo". But Marvel Now actually started out very strong and the slow roll-out made it hard to really compare to the New 52. I did a calculation based on the average number of copies sold of New 52 titles and Marvel Now titles and Marvel Now did remarkably well. I believe the impact has lessened with every new wave of Marvel Now relaunches though so I in the end don't think this is an ideal solution either.

Anyway, my point was that when looking at the numbers there are a lot of elements to take into account and because the market has changed somewhat and that things are handled differently at both companies it becomes much harder to really compare past numbers to the current situation, and as always numbers are kind as you can get them to show pretty much whatever you want them to show depending on your analysis.

It definitely depends on the point of view and taking all of the numbers into consideration. For example, I don't think market share percentage alone is a major indicator on its own. You can make more money on a smaller market share (and vice versa) depending on what is happening with the size of the market overall.

Another thing is that sales alone don't say much without knowing costs, and we truly don't have much access to those.

[The Darknight Detective]

It definitely depends on the point of view and taking all of the numbers into consideration. For example, I don't think market share percentage alone is a major indicator on its own. You can make more money on a smaller market share (and vice versa) depending on what is happening with the size of the market overall.

Very true, but a larger share of the market for DC mutes the most strident Marvel fans more.

[Paul Newell]

October update:

DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Oct) 2014 - 22,258,445 estimated units.
DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Oct) 2013 - 23,875,086 estimated units.

And here are the figures for 1997-2012:
2013 - 28,184,085 estimated units
2012 - 29,602,125 estimated units
2011 - 26,522,201 estimated units
2010 - 23,528,000 estimated units
2009 - 24,126,336 estimated units
2008 - 25,760,378 estimated units
2007 - 29,597,217 estimated units
2006 - 30,243,575 estimated units
2005 - 26,995,698 estimated units
2004 - 23,895,322 estimated units
2003 - 22,344,120 estimated units
2002 - 20,687,488 estimated units - Dan Didio joins DC as VP of Editorial.
2001 - 21,220,332 estimated units
2000 - 23,243,656 estimated units
1999 - 25,141,760 estimated units
1998 - 22,869,060 estimated units
1997 - 26,323,968 estimated units


And, out of interest, here's the Marvel numbers:

Marvel Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Oct) 2014 - 25,706,259 estimated units.
Marvel Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Oct) 2013 - 26,705,419 estimated units.

And here are the figures for 1997-2012:
2013 - 31,243,347 estimated units
2012 - 30,278,745 estimated units.
2011 - 29,522,809 estimated units
2010 - 29,998,200 estimated units
2009 - 34,167,744 estimated units
2008 - 37,269,988 estimated units
2007 - 38,132,744 estimated units
2006 - 34,647,105 estimated units
2005 - 32,461,832 estimated units
2004 - 32,021,066 estimated units
2003 - 28,974,336 estimated units
2002 - 28,473,404 estimated units
2001 - 25,349,296 estimated units
2000 - 21,948,494 estimated units - Joe Quesada becomes EIC.
1999 - 24,111,104 estimated units
1998 - 27,015,555 estimated units
1997 - 32,664,192 estimated units

[Kikaze]

as a former marvel fan, i gotta say: the gap will keep closing, and marvel's supremacy is artificial. they have too many titles that offer NOTHING/undersell, so i'd wager if we saw PROFITS, dc is ahead.

and how could it not be the case? DC RESPECTS THE SOURCE MATERIAL.

whenever DC reboots, the core of the characters remain the same. superman is still superman, batman is still batman, etc. they just take out some of the story, but batman will never become permanently stupid, or superman permanently turn into some rebel figure, deathstroke turn to an idealist, etc. the characters/ personalities and usualy powers, they are the same.

in marvel, with every reauncha nd sometimes in the DURING one relaunch, they cant decide on characters' powers , their age, their motivations.
cyclops is an anti-authority figure rebel, wolverine became an avengers lapdog, mystique cant decide if she is a clever antihero or a psychopath, cap cant decide if he is the freedomfighting figure we saw in civil war or the arsehole we saw in avx.
even if you're an evengers fan, these are still completely out of character things-the characters are all but unrecognizable, and most of the changes unreasonable(cyclops' change has been perhaps the only logicaly explained one)

i was such a vocal marvel supporter yet i cant seem to enjoy marvel STORIES like dc stories anymore. i just cant bring myself to buy ANY marvel title, even the x-force that features my favourite character(cable). the stories just suck, unlike DC's. i am curious as to how many CLASSIC stories have been produced by each company in the last 5 years. if they dont change something fast, its all over for them. i repeat, dont watch total sales figures of underperforming constantly relaunching titles- in PROFITS, they're most likely already behind dc.

[GlennSimpson]

October update:

DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Oct) 2014 - 22,258,445 estimated units.
DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Oct) 2013 - 23,875,086 estimated units.

The gap between 2014 and 2013 narrowed a bit this month, by about 40,000 units. Maybe we can still break 28 million for 2014.

[Tupiaz]

as a former marvel fan, i gotta say: the gap will keep closing, and marvel's supremacy is artificial. they have too many titles that offer NOTHING/undersell, so i'd wager if we saw PROFITS, dc is ahead.

and how could it not be the case? DC RESPECTS THE SOURCE MATERIAL.

whenever DC reboots, the core of the characters remain the same. superman is still superman, batman is still batman, etc. they just take out some of the story, but batman will never become permanently stupid, or superman permanently turn into some rebel figure, deathstroke turn to an idealist, etc. the characters/ personalities and usualy powers, they are the same.

in marvel, with every reauncha nd sometimes in the DURING one relaunch, they cant decide on characters' powers , their age, their motivations.
cyclops is an anti-authority figure rebel, wolverine became an avengers lapdog, mystique cant decide if she is a clever antihero or a psychopath, cap cant decide if he is the freedomfighting figure we saw in civil war or the arsehole we saw in avx.
even if you're an evengers fan, these are still completely out of character things-the characters are all but unrecognizable, and most of the changes unreasonable(cyclops' change has been perhaps the only logicaly explained one)

A lot of this has happen be character growth or development (some would say for the worse). However the character can still be the same and change. People do that in real life all the time. Become wiser more experience which change their view on the world. But the can still be the same character the just have new perspectives. Besides Batman's power level seems to change pretty much he can also go from being a Batjerk to Batgod to regular Batman who does mistakes. That said I enjoy DC more at the moment than Marvel. Mostly though I think because a lot of it is still new and fresh.

[Kikaze]

like i said, i recognize people can change.

cyclops has changed with character development, i recognized that.

rachel has suddenly stopped being "that badass chick from a post-apocalyptic future" and argues with storm because she thinks storm is too violent. with NO story showing why she's softened up.

some characters have had their powers changed up to 5 times in 3 years(and i mean POWERS CHANGE, not nerf/boost, complete change) because, well, change sells, so change for the sake of change.

and many characters are in their 60s or 70s and look 20-something.WITHOUT a reboot like dc giving us a reason why they dont age.while other characters DO age. and lets not start with their continuity problems.

come on now. there's character development and then there's fanwanking to grab attention instead of storytelling.

[Tupiaz]

like i said, i recognize people can change.

cyclops has changed with character development, i recognized that.

rachel has suddenly stopped being "that badass chick from a post-apocalyptic future" and argues with storm because she thinks storm is too violent. with NO story showing why she's softened up.

some characters have had their powers changed up to 5 times in 3 years(and i mean POWERS CHANGE, not nerf/boost, complete change) because, well, change sells, so change for the sake of change.

and many characters are in their 60s or 70s and look 20-something.WITHOUT a reboot like dc giving us a reason why they dont age.while other characters DO age. and lets not start with their continuity problems.

come on now. there's character development and then there's fanwanking to grab attention instead of storytelling.

Rule of thumb is that there goes 7 human years before one Marvel year has passed. I would like to know he is in their 60's or 70's? Some characters age faster for various reasons.

[Kikaze]

Rule of thumb is that there goes 7 human years before one Marvel year has passed. I would like to know he is in their 60's or 70's? Some characters age faster for various reasons.

that rule of thumb is non-existant; said by many marvel fans as an excuse.

emma frost has been deaged with NO explanation other than "we want her to make sense being with cyclops".
franklin richards doesnt age at all.
kitty pryde has aged much faster than 1/7 years, is now clearly an adult, not a teen, and she was 13 when she first joined.
marvel characters age based on "how old writers want them to be". pure and simple.

[cranger]

as a former marvel fan, i gotta say: the gap will keep closing, and marvel's supremacy is artificial. they have too many titles that offer NOTHING/undersell, so i'd wager if we saw PROFITS, dc is ahead.

I do not disagree with a lot of what you are saying about Marvel, having grown up as a Marvel fan, but I suspect Marvel is doing just fine with the profits. They charge a dollar more than DC and cut costs on paper quality (and no proper cover.) The retailers may not be benefiting so much though, as I suspect with all relaunches, events and speculations they end up with a lot more unsold stuff (and I am not saying there are not DC books that are over-ordered.) I do not think what Marvel is doing is sustainable either and seeing how a book is selling three years later without being renumbered tells me more than a book that just launched and has not determined a readership yet.

The gap between 2014 and 2013 narrowed a bit this month, by about 40,000 units. Maybe we can still break 28 million for 2014.

Hopefully the recent wave of new titles and creative changes makes these next two months the biggest of the year.

[Blacksun]

I expected a better October from DC, pretty new books and creative teams, 3 weeklies.

October update:

DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Oct) 2014 - 22,258,445 estimated units.
DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Oct) 2013 - 23,875,086 estimated units.

And here are the figures for 1997-2012:
2013 - 28,184,085 estimated units
2012 - 29,602,125 estimated units
2011 - 26,522,201 estimated units
2010 - 23,528,000 estimated units
2009 - 24,126,336 estimated units
2008 - 25,760,378 estimated units
2007 - 29,597,217 estimated units
2006 - 30,243,575 estimated units
2005 - 26,995,698 estimated units
2004 - 23,895,322 estimated units
2003 - 22,344,120 estimated units
2002 - 20,687,488 estimated units - Dan Didio joins DC as VP of Editorial.
2001 - 21,220,332 estimated units
2000 - 23,243,656 estimated units
1999 - 25,141,760 estimated units
1998 - 22,869,060 estimated units
1997 - 26,323,968 estimated units


And, out of interest, here's the Marvel numbers:

Marvel Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Oct) 2014 - 25,706,259 estimated units.
Marvel Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Oct) 2013 - 26,705,419 estimated units.

And here are the figures for 1997-2012:
2013 - 31,243,347 estimated units
2012 - 30,278,745 estimated units.
2011 - 29,522,809 estimated units
2010 - 29,998,200 estimated units
2009 - 34,167,744 estimated units
2008 - 37,269,988 estimated units
2007 - 38,132,744 estimated units
2006 - 34,647,105 estimated units
2005 - 32,461,832 estimated units
2004 - 32,021,066 estimated units
2003 - 28,974,336 estimated units
2002 - 28,473,404 estimated units
2001 - 25,349,296 estimated units
2000 - 21,948,494 estimated units - Joe Quesada becomes EIC.
1999 - 24,111,104 estimated units
1998 - 27,015,555 estimated units
1997 - 32,664,192 estimated units

this numbers inlcude digital first and vertigo too?