Who is Wonder Woman's Arch-Nemesis?

[Gaius]

Not really? I know there’s sometimes some grudge between the two depending on the continuity, but Hippolyta doesn’t really do anything besides sit on Themyscaria and worry about Diana. Diana is the one who foils Circe’s plots in the modern day. That’s not to say the Diana/Circe relationship couldn’t start out from Circe seeing Diana as a way to get back at the Amazons, but after Diana kicks her *** for the 50th time it’s going to become personal.

That's how I tend to view it. Similar to Zod having a beef with Jor-El which transfers over to Superman when they meet.

[Gurz]

Cheetah 'cause furries are people too. xD jk

[Koriand'r]

Cheetah 'cause furries are people too. xD jk

Yeah but she's such an ineffectual furry though. Circe masterminded War of the Gods, Amazons Attack, the Witch and the Warrior which saw male heroes turned into bestiamorphs along with Superman, she caused the death of half the Amazons including the Bana when she had both sets shipped off to a demon dimension and inadvertently started the Amazon civil war when all of them returned to Themyscira. She brainwashed Hippolyta and was even Wonder Woman herself for a split second. As much as she's forced into the role of arch-nemesis, Cheetah's feats don't compare to Circe's.

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah but she's such an ineffectual furry though. Circe masterminded War of the Gods, Amazons Attack, the Witch and the Warrior which saw male heroes turned into bestiamorphs along with Superman, she caused the death of half the Amazons including the Bana when she had both sets shipped off to a demon dimension and inadvertently started the Amazon civil war when all of them returned to Themyscira. She brainwashed Hippolyta and was even Wonder Woman herself for a split second. As much as she's forced into the role of arch-nemesis, Cheetah's feats don't compare to Circe's.

The problem is that most of those stories aren't very good. Especially Amazons Attack (which was actually Granny Goodness or some crap, wasn't it?).

I think as a single story, Rucka's brief one in the anniversary issue was more enjoyable for both Circe AND Cheetah than most other stories either of them are in.

[Koriand'r]

The problem is that most of those stories aren't very good. Especially Amazons Attack (which was actually Granny Goodness or some crap, wasn't it?).

I think as a single story, Rucka's brief one in the anniversary issue was more enjoyable for both Circe AND Cheetah than most other stories either of them are in.

Amazons Attack was terrible but the rest were good, especially Paradise Lost and Found (the Amazon civil war) ymmv though. In AA Granny Goodness masqueraded as Athena but Circe brought Hippolyta back from the dead and got the ball rolling. She also had a child with Ares literally creating a super-villain merger and that's something else Cheetah hasn't done. Personally I still want to know what happened with the evil little Lyta, that's one of the great unresolved mysteries of Postcrisis WW continuity, along with the missing second Gauntlet of Atlas and the other lost tribes of Amazons besides the Bana that were mentioned but went unexplored.

[SiegePerilous02]

Amazons Attack was terrible but the rest were good, especially Paradise Lost and Found (the Amazon civil war) ymmv though. In AA Granny Goodness masqueraded as Athena but Circe brought Hippolyta back from the dead and got the ball rolling. She also had a child with Ares literally creating a super-villain merger and that's something else Cheetah hasn't done. Personally I still want to know what happened with the evil little Lyta, that's one of the great unresolved mysteries of Postcrisis WW continuity, along with the missing second Gauntlet of Atlas and the other lost tribes of Amazons besides the Bana that were mentioned but went unexplored.

I liked the Paradise Lost arc and Jimenez in general is pretty much the only writer to sell me on Circe maybe being Diana's arch nemesis, so I agree on those. I haven't gotten to War of the Gods yet since I'm waiting for the next Perez paperbac before getting that, but it has the reputation of being a bloated mess. For the rest of his run, Perez sets up both Barbara Minerva and Circe as Diana's dark mirrors, but Minerva IMO is the more interesting character.

And getting the ball rolling for AA isn't really anything praise worthy. What does it matter if the story sucks? I think not being involved in that dumpster fire is actually a point in Cheetah's favor over Circe. Plus Circe vanished from the pages of WW until Rebirth after that, so it didn't do her any favors. Meanwhile, Sinestro got Sinestro Corps War to further cement his status as his franchise's arch nemesis. That's generally how you do it. Cheetah hasn't had a story like that yet, but Circe has had two and they landed like wet farts.

Not that I view it as her fault though. I don't think we are swimming in many quality stories for her, Cheetah or (especially) Ares. They are all kind of on equal footing in that regard.

[Koriand'r]

I liked the Paradise Lost arc and Jimenez in general is pretty much the only writer to sell me on Circe maybe being Diana's arch nemesis, so I agree on those. I haven't gotten to War of the Gods yet since I'm waiting for the next Perez paperbac before getting that, but it has the reputation of being a bloated mess. For the rest of his run, Perez sets up both Barbara Minerva and Circe as Diana's dark mirrors, but Minerva IMO is the more interesting character.

And getting the ball rolling for AA isn't really anything praise worthy. What does it matter if the story sucks? I think not being involved in that dumpster fire is actually a point in Cheetah's favor over Circe. Plus Circe vanished from the pages of WW until Rebirth after that, so it didn't do her any favors. Meanwhile, Sinestro got Sinestro Corps War to further cement his status as his franchise's arch nemesis. That's generally how you do it. Cheetah hasn't had a story like that yet, but Circe has had two and they landed like wet farts.

Not that I view it as her fault though. I don't think we are swimming in many quality stories for her, Cheetah or (especially) Ares. They are all kind of on equal footing in that regard.

AA was a great idea that DC stole and botched. It contradicted it's own continuity as well as what came before and was written so badly it lost all credibility. The fact remains Cheetah has nothing that comes close in scale. To be honest I just like Circe better, she has more personality despite the layers Rucka added to Cheetah in Rebirth. They aided her character immeasurably, but they haven't helped make her a more formidable adversary. I was one of a few who had a wait and see approach when it was announced that Cheetah would steal or destroy Diana's weapons. I argued it could possibly make Cheetah more respectable, but instead it became a mess of Diana mired in self doubt and Cheetah was as boring as ever. That's not a quality you want in an arch nemesis. She's no Sinestro.

Yet even when her stories are rotten Circe remains entertaining. She's unpredictable. Is she going to dress down and make jokes and play nice? Or is she going to be an evil sorceress diva bitch on wheels? You never know what you're going to get and she's always working a plan.

[Vordan]

Yeah I’ve said it before but Diana doesn’t have a clear arch like Superman has Lex and Batman has Joker. There’s no one villain who stands head and shoulders above the rest. Cheetah is the most well known but I don’t really feel like she’s got a higher number of quality stories. And part of that is because there has not been a real deep dive into the psychology of her villains, because of all the god**** reboots that constantly reset Diana and her villains. What I really want for Diana is some standalone stories that focus on her villains and flesh them out. The modern interpretation of the Joker got started under O’Neil but it’s absolutely The Killing Joke that made Joker who he is. The modern Lex Luthor really started to be shaped by Azzarelo’s Luthor one shot that portrayed Lex as a self-delusional Messiah who truly believes he’s the hero and Superman is the villain.

Both Cheetah and Circe have started to come into their own lately. Rucka’s Rebirth run finally made Cheetah “click” for me as a villain. I’ve always liked Circe because flamboyant villainess are my favorite kind of villainess, but Tynion’s recent JL Dark run with Circe totally showed Circe as powerful, cunning, and very, very dangerous. So while Amazons Attack! sucked, I loved Circe in the Witching Hour and The Witching War, I thought she was great there and I’ve always favored her as Diana’s arch though so maybe I’m just biased . So it’s not like the recent ongoings have been a total bust in terms of developing Diana’s Rogues.

But the thing about standalones is they’re not tied up in continuity crap, and they can let the characters do what they want without having to fight with editorial because they’re technically “non-canon”. And if they’re good? They’ll either be folded into canon like TKJ was or they’ll still influence the character’s characterization like Luthor did. I’d love to see Simone or Rucka or Jimenez or any strong creative team who wants to use Diana’s villains use them in a Black Label book.

[Stanlos]

Prior to Azzarello, I've always seen her true 'arch nemesis' as Ares, who in both the original and the Perez origins was the driving force behind her leaving Themyscira. He was the representative of war while she was the ambassador of peace, and as such was set up to be her true, long-term opposition.

Same. Torn between him and Circe really.

[SiegePerilous02]

AA was a great idea that DC stole and botched. It contradicted it's own continuity as well as what came before and was written so badly it lost all credibility. The fact remains Cheetah has nothing that comes close in scale. To be honest I just like Circe better, she has more personality despite the layers Rucka added to Cheetah in Rebirth. They aided her character immeasurably, but they haven't helped make her a more formidable adversary. I was one of a few who had a wait and see approach when it was announced that Cheetah would steal or destroy Diana's weapons. I argued it could possibly make Cheetah more respectable, but instead it became a mess of Diana mired in self doubt and Cheetah was as boring as ever. That's not a quality you want in an arch nemesis. She's no Sinestro.

Yet even when her stories are rotten Circe remains entertaining. She's unpredictable. Is she going to dress down and make jokes and play nice? Or is she going to be an evil sorceress diva bitch on wheels? You never know what you're going to get and she's always working a plan.

Cheetah's no Sinestro, but neither is Circe. Hell without Johns, Sinestro isn't always consistently a Sinestro anymore.

Does having a story on the level of AA really matter if the story is crap? War of the Gods has the good will of being the end of an otherwise long and definitive run, whereas AA is hot garbage from start to finish. And hasn't seemed to impact Circe's popularity either way. I certainly don't think many came away from the story liking her any better, especially after Batman mumbled some magic words at her and knocked her on her ass. I do agree that her being entertaining even in her worst stories is an advantage over the worst Cheetah stories. But I wouldn't hold Wilson's run against Cheetah, considering like you say she dropped the ball with Diana there too. Not just in that arc, but for most of the run, and I doubt Circe would have fared too much better. Whereas Rucka could write the hell out of Diana, Cheetah AND Circe.

Basically, I agree that we each just like one over the other. And this definitely isn't to knock Circe too much, she's definitely my #2 favorite WW villain and I want her to be in the third film. The two of them, and (surprisingly) Veronica Cale make up my top 3 bad ladies of WW.

[AmiMizuno]

Why can’t Diana have all three has these arch enemies. I mean yea Lex is Superman’s archenemy but Branaic would also be another type of archenemy

[Vordan]

Why can’t Diana have all three has these arch enemies. I mean yea Lex is Superman’s archenemy but Branaic would also be another type of archenemy

Brainiac is number 2 for sure, but in terms of the number of quality stories, and the exploration of the relationship between a Villain and Clark? No one even comes close to Lex. Ditto for Joker and Batman. That’s not to say all the rogues seems equal. Supes’ Big 3 villains are Lex, Brainiac, and Zod, those three have far more brand awareness than anyone else. Diana’s top three rogues are probably Cheetah, Circe, and Ares in terms of the most well known Diana Villains which is why those three are the top contenders for who should be her arch (unfortunately for Rucka who really has pushed Cale as much as he can lol). Like it or not, Max Lord is going to be seen as one of Diana’s most prominent enemies after WW1984 because he was in the movie, and unlike a lot of her other villains, Max got a “win” over her by smearing her reputation.

[Nyssane]

Why can’t Diana have all three has these arch enemies. I mean yea Lex is Superman’s archenemy but Branaic would also be another type of archenemy

I mean, I guess it's what you consider by the term "arch-nemesis." For me, it means her one true iconic foe. Batman has Joker, Superman has Luthor, Green Lantern has Sinestro, Captain America has Red Skull, Thor has Loki, etc. Obviously there are some heroes that don't have a distinct solo villain (Like, is Green Lantern Spider-Man's? Or is it Doctor Octopus? Or Venom? Who is Flash's iconic foe? Probably Captain Cold? But there's also Reverse-Flash...?). Wonder Woman is mostly in the second category, but DC has really pushed Cheetah the past four years. All the merchandise is of Cheetah, with almost no Ares merch (despite him being in her film) and next to none for Circe.

[kjn]

Another problem is that neither Cheetah nor Ares nor Circe work well as Diana's arch-nemesis, since none of them really say anything about her relation to Man's World. They do play to certain aspects of Diana, but not the ones of gender relations or the teachings that Diana are supposed to bring to our society.

A "trinity" of arch-enemies of say Doctor Psycho, Veronica Cale, and Cheetah would IMO be far more interesting to explore.

[AmiMizuno]

In a sense this is wby Villany Inc works. They are mostly man’s world. They were all stopped by Diana. In a sense i often like the idea of them going by Diana’s words of sisterhood. They are the antithesis pf the Amazons. They care for each other but everyone else is fair game. They will help women but at a cost. For example, the mask. Inspired by Diana kills men who are abusive. In that sense I see Villany Inc has Diana’s threat. Her villains care for one another. Took some of her words and are stronger because of it. The antithesis of the Amazons. They share a great bond thanks to Diana. The care and respect each other. Other villains. They work with them but they don’t care for them.

Not everything have to 100% match the characters it’s all about motives. Cheetah is more of the mirror to Diana. Both great powers. One thing honestly what if Diana at first trained Babs. I mean if we keep amazons got their powers through training. Babs could easily be willing to go for more. She learns about the Banas. She steals Maat dagger