What verdict would you give the Clone Saga?

[Webhead]

..or would have led to an even worse retcon / reversal down the road (who knows?). As likable as Ben Reilly could be, I'm glad he didn't remain as Spider-man when it was all said and done.

But totally agree that the DeMatteis stuff was the very best of the Clone Saga. I think his work only faltered when he had to write a quarter of a story that was being run through all 4 titles (really a big part of why the whole 90's Clone Saga was so weak). The Judas Traveler blowing up New York 2-parter was terrible too.

I wonder what JMD really intended to do with Traveler. I think Glenn Greenberg addresses that in the Life of Reilly blog, but I can't remember what was said. Either Greenberg or DeFalco had to finish writing Traveler's story.

I think what Greenberg said is that no one really had any idea where to go with Traveller. If JMD did, he must've never brought it up. Retconning him into a mutant illusionist is a mixed bag -on one hand it makes him a bit more grounded for Spider-Man, but it also makes that 2 parter and other bits nonsensical. Why would he make himself look threatened by the energy vortex... thing... and have Spider-Man "save" him? Why did he pull the mock trial of Peter? Did he and the jury made up of villains and supporting characters ever teleport in and out of it or was it all in Peter's (and maybe Kaine's) head?

[Haquim]

I think what Greenberg said is that no one really had any idea where to go with Traveller. If JMD did, he must've never brought it up. Retconning him into a mutant illusionist is a mixed bag -on one hand it makes him a bit more grounded for Spider-Man, but it also makes that 2 parter and other bits nonsensical. Why would he make himself look threatened by the energy vortex... thing... and have Spider-Man "save" him? Why did he pull the mock trial of Peter? Did he and the jury made up of villains and supporting characters ever teleport in and out of it or was it all in Peter's (and maybe Kaine's) head?

I have an answer that could retcon Judas Traveller and actually make him work. It's a bit complex but the bare bones of the idea are these: Traveller is actually right, he really was alive all that time and he really has reality altering powers (hey... nothing new here... look at Franklyn or Wanda...), he is significant on a cosmic level yet he doesn't have a moral compass and he's searching for answers (the whole "nature of evil" thing). Now let's just say what happened during the Clone Saga was all Mephysto and Scrier (the true one, not the cultists) through their unwitting agent Norman Osborn (who Mephysto sent back to the world of the living altering reality and history in a similar way to what he accomplished with OMD.... Norman banging Gwen would be part of this rouse) convincing Traveller he actually was just a mutant illusionist and suceeeding, so that Traveller limited himself to what he believed his power was.
To make a long story short, this way, with a few twists and tweaks we could have a story able to fix Sins of the past, the Clone Saga's finale, and OMD-OMIT.

Honestly a story like that fixing those awful mistakes in Spidey's continuity is a dream of mine...

[Vortex85]

I just doubt that shoving MJ and Peter and their baby off to Portland would've been the end of it. People would be clamoring for their return and Marvel would've had to do something, perhaps something even more distasteful than OMD, but I don't want to speculate on that much more.

Also, Ben never took Peter's name even after Ben became Spider-man and Peter and MJ left New York. He was meant to stand on his own with a new cast of characters.

Tom Defalco has stated a few times now that contrary to popular belief, the original plan when with the clone saga was to ALWAYS have Peter come back as the original Spider-Man and be a father. The whole thing with Ben being the orignal was just a stunt to get attention. So when they made MJ pregnant, they were actually going to run with it. Obviously there was some disagreement and the people at Marvel attempt to remove the baby, then baby May almost came back, but then Defalco left the company, and his replacement had it be Aunt May instead.

So the whole idea that they had oringally planned to replace Peter with Ben and give Peter and MJ a happy ending is false. Accoriding to Defalco, that was not the oringal plan, it may have become that way afterward for a short time, but it wasn't the idea for the clone saga in the first place. So the whole notion that the clone saga was just a stunt to get a single Spider-Man again is false.

[Tupiaz]

I went for a C. However I would like to reread the whole thing to get it refresh and see it in a new light. it was some of the first material I read 12 years or so ago therefor a lot of the details and stories are rusty.

[Aioros22]

Tom Defalco has stated a few times now that contrary to popular belief, the original plan when with the clone saga was to ALWAYS have Peter come back as the original Spider-Man and be a father. The whole thing with Ben being the orignal was just a stunt to get attention. So when they made MJ pregnant, they were actually going to run with it. Obviously there was some disagreement and the people at Marvel attempt to remove the baby, then baby May almost came back, but then Defalco left the company, and his replacement had it be Aunt May instead.

So the whole idea that they had oringally planned to replace Peter with Ben and give Peter and MJ a happy ending is false. Accoriding to Defalco, that was not the oringal plan, it may have become that way afterward for a short time, but it wasn't the idea for the clone saga in the first place. So the whole notion that the clone saga was just a stunt to get a single Spider-Man again is false.

From "Life of Ben" the original plan under an editor was indeed to replace Ben as factually Peter Parker, since with the marriage and child coming in, they wanted a Peter Parker with no atachments. The problem was the interaction with the already set supporting cast in explaining how Peter wasn`t with MJ next to him if Ben blend in the role as he was supposed to as the real thing.

Personally I would have kept Ben as Scarlet Spider myself, even if I did enjoy his stint as Spider-Man which I still wouldn`t erase. If not for anything, it got the best Spider-Man design outfit ever, kudos of Bagley.

[Vortex85]

From "Life of Ben" the original plan under an editor was indeed to replace Ben as factually Peter Parker, since with the marriage and child coming in, they wanted a Peter Parker with no atachments. The problem was the interaction with the already set supporting cast in explaining how Peter wasn`t with MJ next to him if Ben blend in the role as he was supposed to as the real thing.

Personally I would have kept Ben as Scarlet Spider myself, even if I did enjoy his stint as Spider-Man which I still wouldn`t erase. If not for anything, it got the best Spider-Man design outfit ever, kudos of Bagley.

Hm.. interesting. I wonder why Defalco would say otherwise on the Spider-Girl forums. He was doing question and answers and said the following:

5. When was decided, that Peter Parker had to be reestablished as the real Spider-Man as fast as possible?

Bob Harras took over as editor and chief and felt that the clone saga had gone on much too long. As for Peter Parker being reestablished as Spider-Man—contrary to popular belief--that was always the plan!

I also found this as one of Tom's answers on following up. Basically, he and Danny had planned to pull a swtich on both the fans and writers. As EIC, he wanted Peter to be the original and become a father, while the writers were under the impression that it would be Ben.

4) Shortly after the meeting ended (and by shortly, I mean within an hour), I took Danny aside and told him that the team should proceed with their idea. However, a few months after Ben became Spider-Man, we would pull a double switcheroo (on the readers and the team) and bring Pete, Mary Jane and the baby back into the picture, learn that Pete was really Peter and then launch Ben in his own book. That way we'd ultimately end up with a married Spider-Man with a family...and a single "Spider-Man" (the Scarlter Spider--although I didn't know what Ben's superhero name would be at that time). It was basiclly a redo of the Thor/Thunderstrike and Iron Man/War Machine trick.

[Aioros22]

It`s weird because the idea of getting the old Parker back as the real deal instead of Ben taking over permantly, came from the previous editor after a conversation with Dan jurgens, who wanted the vintage deal back because of all the history he had with the fanbase and supporting cast (a valid reason even if it began with the shafting of Ben that ended with his dumb death).

Jurgens left not long after Harras took over. Now, perhaps Defalco and the co of the original planning had that in mind since the start, which seems logical: you could still have Peter and you have a new Spider in Scarlet (and the Scarlet Spider/Ben was, according to the extrapolation in "Life of Ben" at the time quite popular before the backlash of taking over as Spider-Man) but the problem steems from at least the general feeling from editorial that "Peter Parker/Spider-Man" could not have a functional marriage with children and still be the hero he had been written all those years.

How history repeats itself.

The other weird thing was that for all the talk of finishing the CS fast, Harras actually decided to expand it (milk it) some more months, which seemingly was the reason Jurgens walked away. But once he milked it some more, he sure made his way of erasing as much of the clone saga as he could. From all interviews I`ve read about him, he was a piece of work to deal with and seemed too closed minded. The only good thing about his tenure to me was stopping the idea that was being thrown around of Norman being behind most things gone wrong in Peter`s life since the 60`s and minimize his range of action in regards to the Clone Saga proper and it`s plot trails. Still crappy but it could have been worse.

No wonder I like the Clone Saga. All these years and the controversy goes strong.

[Vortex85]

It`s weird because the idea of getting the old Parker back as the real deal instead of Ben taking over permantly, came from the previous editor after a conversation with Dan jurgens, who wanted the vintage deal back because of all the history he had with the fanbase and supporting cast (a valid reason even if it began with the shafting of Ben that ended with his dumb death).

Jurgens left not long after Harras took over. Now, perhaps Defalco and the co of the original planning had that in mind since the start, which seems logical: you could still have Peter and you have a new Spider in Scarlet (and the Scarlet Spider/Ben was, according to the extrapolation in "Life of Ben" at the time quite popular before the backlash of taking over as Spider-Man) but the problem steems from at least the general feeling from editorial that "Peter Parker/Spider-Man" could not have a functional marriage with children and still be the hero he had been written all those years.

How history repeats itself.

The other weird thing was that for all the talk of finishing the CS fast, Harras actually decided to expand it (milk it) some more months, which seemingly was the reason Jurgens walked away. But once he milked it some more, he sure made his way of erasing as much of the clone saga as he could. From all interviews I`ve read about him, he was a piece of work to deal with and seemed too closed minded. The only good thing about his tenure to me was stopping the idea that was being thrown around of Norman being behind most things gone wrong in Peter`s life since the 60`s and minimize his range of action in regards to the Clone Saga proper and it`s plot trails. Still crappy but it could have been worse.

No wonder I like the Clone Saga. All these years and the controversy goes strong.

Yep, that seems to align with what Tom D. has been saying on the forums. His overall plan was to have a married Peter/MJ and also feature a side title of Scarlet Spider. Oh how I wish this would have been the case!

[Godzilla2099]

F: Complete Garbage.

I was a huge Spider-Man Fan back in those days but even by 90s standards that saga was bad

[comicscollector]

I voted D.
I just did not voted F,because it had some redeeming values over all.As the J.M.DeMatteis stories or Jackal being a main villain instead of Green Goblin or Doctor Octopus.

[Metamorphosis]

It`s weird because the idea of getting the old Parker back as the real deal instead of Ben taking over permantly, came from the previous editor after a conversation with Dan jurgens, who wanted the vintage deal back because of all the history he had with the fanbase and supporting cast (a valid reason even if it began with the shafting of Ben that ended with his dumb death).

Jurgens left not long after Harras took over. Now, perhaps Defalco and the co of the original planning had that in mind since the start, which seems logical: you could still have Peter and you have a new Spider in Scarlet (and the Scarlet Spider/Ben was, according to the extrapolation in "Life of Ben" at the time quite popular before the backlash of taking over as Spider-Man) but the problem steems from at least the general feeling from editorial that "Peter Parker/Spider-Man" could not have a functional marriage with children and still be the hero he had been written all those years.

How history repeats itself.

Jurgens did some strong work on Ben Reilly for not having wanted to write him. Sensational, and to a lesser extent, DeFalco's take in Amazing were about the only versions of Spider-Ben that were memorable to me.

[Mister Mets]

I voted D.
I just did not voted F,because it had some redeeming values over all.As the J.M.DeMatteis stories or Jackal being a main villain instead of Green Goblin or Doctor Octopus.

So this is what it takes for you to give a negative review.

[Aioros22]

Jurgens did some strong work on Ben Reilly for not having wanted to write him. Sensational, and to a lesser extent, DeFalco's take in Amazing were about the only versions of Spider-Ben that were memorable to me.

No doubt, Jurgens work with Ben was pretty strong with characterization. I don`t think he hated Ben or anything (there weren`t writers that actually did - just the corner they seemed to take the direction to) but despite accepting the gig with the shakeup at hand (which wouldn`t scare him one bit, the man`s body of work in the 90`s was compromised of shaking up stale properties) I think Jurgens was excited with the prospect of sooner or later writing the character with the long and rich history with continuity and fanbase. Kinda like Reign of Superman in a way (being the controversial competition and all).

What I believe did scare him off was Harras milking the Saga some more months before ending it abruptly.

[Panagiotis1]

I gave it a B. It was an good idea with a few problems but I have to admit that I really liked the scarlet spider era and costumes.

[Webhead]

No doubt, Jurgens work with Ben was pretty strong with characterization. I don`t think he hated Ben or anything (there weren`t writers that actually did - just the corner they seemed to take the direction to) but despite accepting the gig with the shakeup at hand (which wouldn`t scare him one bit, the man`s body of work in the 90`s was compromised of shaking up stale properties) I think Jurgens was excited with the prospect of sooner or later writing the character with the long and rich history with continuity and fanbase. Kinda like Reign of Superman in a way (being the controversial competition and all).

Yeah, Jurgens' Ben was cool. It would be nice to see him take a stab at Peter Spider-Man some time.