Thoughts on Civil War?

[LifeIsILL]

Additionally, it's not like this topic hasn't come up in the Marvel Universe before. Mutant registration has been around for a while, and it's always been portrayed as a bad thing the X-Men fight against. I can't remember the context or the issue, but in a story from the...80's I want to say...Reed Richards made a pretty convincing argument against registering superhumans.

Fantastic Four 336-04.jpg

Fantastic Four 336-07.jpg

Reed explains right here why he was against the Superhuman registration thing and in Civil War he was for it??

That was just weird to me, maybe something caused him to change his mind?

Or just bad writing?

[PrankT]

Fantastic Four 336-04.jpg

Fantastic Four 336-07.jpg

Reed explains right here why he was against the Superhuman registration thing and in Civil War he was for it??

That was just weird to me, maybe something caused him to change his mind?

Or just bad writing?

That was a great reed. Pun intended!

Civil War was horrible writing. Bringing up the topic of registration and differing view points was fine and interesting, but the methods the pro side used was just ridiculous and completely out of character. They should have just made Tony Stark and Reed skrulls to explain their silly (murderous?) decisions.

[marvelguy25]

So guys do you think civil war should exist in order to make the writing good or do you believe it shouldn't because none if this makes any sense nor fits the universe?

[jackolover]

So guys do you think civil war should exist in order to make the writing good?

I'm not sure by what context you mean this, "make the writing good"? How does the CW making writing good?

or do you believe it shouldn't because none if this makes any sense nor fits the universe?

Do I think CW shouldn't exist because none of this (CW to Siege) makes any sense nor fits the universe?

On a conceptual basis, the experience of CW has provided a vehicle to relive the flawed nature of the super heroes as they were before they got their powers. Stark a horrible weapons maker, Peter Parker a judgemental slime ball, Reed Richards an entitled scientist wanting something better, and Steve Rogers, living in the past with out-dated principles of his war years masked men. If we didn't have the super heroes exposed to this type of contradiction to their preferred state, we would never have found out that they could devolve back to a basic survival state, with no concern for others. I think CW also shows the conflicting emotions in characters with making decisions they don't like. We saw Peter Parker get physically ill after he unmasked. We saw Stark almost go back to the bottle when he allowed his badly injured friend, Happy, die. We saw a deeply conflicted Reed Richards look decidedly depressed when Peter Parker reminded him of Reeds uncles principles in front of communist trials in America. Once the window to reality was opened the little bit it did in the MU, with Homeland Security concerns being applied to super heroes, the super heroes became sick. it was a poisoning exercise from Marvel.

Was it worth it? Could we have done without it? Sure we could have avoided CW and not disrupted the MU the way it has. But the CW poisoning of the universe was a reminder that nothing is safe or protected, or immune from conflict, and a sobering reminder of what the characters at Marvel are really like underneath, without their protective covering of honour they earned by changing for the better. But the exercise is a very harsh lesson to learn for the heroes, and I don't know they want their fantasy world shattered the way it did. Sure, Marvel is world outside your window in some ways, but the super heroes like maintaining the fantasy of purity and honour in conflict that is like a shield for their fortitude. They just lost that shield of fortitude, and it remains to be seen if Marvel leaves the window of reality open, or closes it for a time to rejuvenate their products, because the heroes have certainly learnt their lesson. The Lesson of the mid 2000's was, never take your world for granted, because as comfortable as it can get, it can all be taken away at the drop of a hat. Now there is no Watcher, no Nick Fury senior, no sober Tony Stark, No Steve Rogers as Cap, no Thor but a replacement, no Wolverine, no Avengers soon because of AXIS, no Fantastic Four. All because reality flooded in and made the MU wake up and grow a conscience. I'm not sure if the MU has anywhere to go from here. If the MU goes to the place where the super heroes were before they got their powers, (Peter Parker as a sullen entitled nobody, the FF as anonymous, Stark as a greedy entrepreneur, etc), then they have to do a story where the characters have to earn back their titles.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Fantastic Four 336-04.jpg

Fantastic Four 336-07.jpg

Reed explains right here why he was against the Superhuman registration thing and in Civil War he was for it??

That was just weird to me, maybe something caused him to change his mind?

Or just bad writing?

Thanks for that! Do you happen to know when it was written?

[marvelguy25]

Civil war is garbage. Now the hype for it in the MCU is 10x more annoying than before-_-. As if the marvel movies haven't been irritating enough.

[Mikekerr3]

Fantastic Four 336-04.jpg

Fantastic Four 336-07.jpg

Reed explains right here why he was against the Superhuman registration thing and in Civil War he was for it??

That was just weird to me, maybe something caused him to change his mind?

Or just bad writing?

Bad writing an no appearance of the editor giving a damn

[jackolover]

Civil War was the nail in the coffin of the old system of super hero activity that lasted 4 decades in the Marvel Universe, held aloft on the record of outstanding successes and given warranted love for this service. Once the last nail shot home, there was a loss experienced by the super heroes that could not be imagined, because it meant the values the super heroes had striven for had changed in their understanding. I do not think that loss can ever be recovered again, unless a requisite change back to those values is returned. The super heroes have no heart to continue purposefully again, and as it stands they languish in a dream of past glories, that will fade with their passing. It is a tragedy of circumstance, which because deconstructed writing has painted its super heroes as tarnished, the inevitable end is coming to this generation of super heroes whose hopes have been dashed, that they did any good at all for an ungrateful society.

[Iron Fist]

I only read the main title and I thought it was full of padding, anti-climaxes and 'epic' moments for the sake of it that they then explain away with a shrug (robot Thor).

Only minor character who I had never even heard of died throughout the whole main run.

I just don't get what it was meant to be, the freedom vs security allegory broke down pages after it was introduced and then it was just a light hearted feud.

Maybe it's better if you read the tie ins, but if you can only call something good after having read the non-essential material then I consider it a failure.

[jackolover]

I only read the main title and I thought it was full of padding, anti-climaxes and 'epic' moments for the sake of it that they then explain away with a shrug (robot Thor).

Only minor character who I had never even heard of died throughout the whole main run.

I just don't get what it was meant to be, the freedom vs security allegory broke down pages after it was introduced and then it was just a light hearted feud.

Maybe it's better if you read the tie ins, but if you can only call something good after having read the non-essential material then I consider it a failure.

It's what it led too that makes Civil War so corrosive. The story itself may have seemed trivial, but by the time everyone sat down and realized what happened, it became apparent that the super heroes were just disinherited. That's how big an effects it had, and it hasn't changed since CW. Super Heroes still can't claim independent action, without oversight.

[Nomads1]

Thanks for that! Do you happen to know when it was written?

1989. Fantastic Four #336, part three of the three parter Fantastic Four vs Congress arc that opened Walt Simonson's run in the FF. Recently collected in the Fantastic Four Epic Collection vol. 20 - Into the Timestream. Great read all around.

Peace

[XPac]

Fantastic Four 336-04.jpg

Fantastic Four 336-07.jpg

Reed explains right here why he was against the Superhuman registration thing and in Civil War he was for it??

That was just weird to me, maybe something caused him to change his mind?

Or just bad writing?

I think in several cases, people were against Registration in principal but ended up supporting it simply because they believed it was inevitable.

Even Stark initially tried opposing the registration with his little stunt in Congress with Spider-Man. But once Stark and Reed realized that it was inevitable anyways, they decided to take control of the whole thing. If it's going to happen anyways, they might as well control it themselves so they can mitigate the damage... I think that's the rationale anyways.

Guys like Reed and Stark are people who might do things they don't agree with simply because they feel it's necessary or there's no choice. We can sort of see that in Hickmans book too.

[Mark]

I think in several cases, people were against Registration in principal but ended up supporting it simply because they believed it was inevitable.

Even Stark initially tried opposing the registration with his little stunt in Congress with Spider-Man. But once Stark and Reed realized that it was inevitable anyways, they decided to take control of the whole thing. If it's going to happen anyways, they might as well control it themselves so they can mitigate the damage... I think that's the rationale anyways.

Guys like Reed and Stark are people who might do things they don't agree with simply because they feel it's necessary or there's no choice. We can sort of see that in Hickmans book too.

Trouble is none of that came out in the writing. Stark was written as scum for the most part and Reed lied to everyone in sight and displayed a complete lack of concern for life. CW set the standard for their 'ends justify the means' behavior and it continues to do so. With cw marvel learned that bad writing, lazy editing and scattershot plotting would sell, so that's what they've stuck with.

[Mikekerr3]

I think in several cases, people were against Registration in principal but ended up supporting it simply because they believed it was inevitable.

Even Stark initially tried opposing the registration with his little stunt in Congress with Spider-Man. But once Stark and Reed realized that it was inevitable anyways, they decided to take control of the whole thing. If it's going to happen anyways, they might as well control it themselves so they can mitigate the damage... I think that's the rationale anyways.

Guys like Reed and Stark are people who might do things they don't agree with simply because they feel it's necessary or there's no choice. We can sort of see that in Hickmans book too.

And what "sxpalins" the reluctant heroes gong so vilely over the to when implementing something they really don't believe it. $2 and CLOR seen like the actions of psychotic "true believers 'not reluctant heroes

[HaveAtThee]

I never read the event but the premise sucked and I had left comic books for a while at that time. Over-examining (or overstating rather) the flaws of the protagonist and making them into an anti-hero basically blurs the lines between hero and villain, and neuters the essential formula of a superhero story. Suddenly the best villains don't seem so villainous anymore and their driving force gets yanked from underneath them. This is what happens when Indie writers are given the reigns to superhero stories.